Full Episode HERE.

00:50 The Journey of Writing and Sharing Knowledge

03:33 Cocktail Crafting: Learning from Mistakes

06:48 Respecting Classic Cocktails

09:41 The Art of Tasting and Developing Cocktails

12:37 The Design Process in Cocktail Creation

15:36 Navigating the Bar Scene and Mentorship

18:43 The Evolution of Bartending and Management

21:39 The Importance of Flavor Memory and Experience

24:34 Judging Spirits and Continuous Learning

27:54 Embracing Individual Strengths

28:29 The Evolution of Bartending Culture

29:39 Trends in the Cocktail Industry

31:46 Pricing and Customer Experience in Bars

33:34 The Importance of Flexibility in Bar Operations

35:42 The Non-Alcoholic Movement and Its Impact

39:39 The Future of Drinking Culture

48:32 Challenges of the Restaurant Industry

52:36 Innovations in Cocktail Preparation

What if everything you thought made a great bartender was wrong?

Today’s guest is Jeffrey Morgenthaler. If you’ve touched a jigger in the last 15 years, chances are you’ve felt his influence. He’s the guy bartenders read, steal from, and share his writings far and wide.

Whether you’ve never bartended or you’ve been behind the stick for 20 years, this conversation will challenge the way you think about hospitality, creativity…and maybe even your own career.

Links:

• ⁠Jeffrey’s Website⁠ (where you can find all the free drink calculators he mentions at the end of the conversation!)
• ⁠Instagram⁠

Pour yourself something good (maybe a bloody mary, you’ll see why during the convo). This one is pretty funny…

Expect to Learn:

• How to batch cocktails without ruining them
• The truth about $25 martinis
• Why some bartenders sound like clowns
• How to fix mint syrup
• The forgotten art of fun in bars
• Why most NA cocktails suck (and how to fix them)
• The power of flavor memory
• How to build better menus faster
• Why Long Island Iced Teas deserve respect
• How to avoid pricing people out of your bar
• Why most “original cocktails” are actually sloppy
• The hidden cost of not questioning your bar setup (which is being grilled by Jeffrey on a podcast!)

.

Service starts now.

I talk mostly to people in and around the service industry space. I’m looking to hear from the people I wish I could have talked to when I was coming up in restaurants. Said another way: I am trying to make sense of this wild, beautiful mess of a life, and help others that are feeling similarly confused and/or lost. You can find more of my work at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠my blog⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and all my social links are at the bottom of that page.

Classic Episodes You May Like:

-#10:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nat Harry, cocktail expert!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-#14:⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Dr. Shalini Bahl, mindful marketing⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-#22:⁠Doug Frost MW MS⁠

As always, I’m just here taking notes, trying to figure out what it all means.

Cheers

Andrew Roy (03:10.508)

You know, I was going through my notes and I wanted to actually grab my book, the bar book. So I got it way back in the day when it came out long enough that I was trying to remember and I couldn’t remember if I got it on Amazon or a bookstore. I was like, that’s been a while. And I was looking around and I couldn’t find it. And I was frantically digging through everything. And finally I gave up and I just thought it’s who knows where I put it. And I realized about an hour ago, I

Jeffrey (03:23.84)

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Roy (03:40.364)

I gave it to one of my new bartenders to one of the newer guys because he was asking what he should read and what he should start studying. And so I was like, that is perfect. So.

Jeffrey (03:47.584)

get that a lot. I get that a lot. People are like, you know, I love your book. I got it. You know, when it came out, I don’t have any more cause I’ve loaned it to three different bartenders and I don’t know who like, yeah, I don’t know who kept it. You know, that’s, that’s such a compliment too, to, have your book get passed, passed around like that, you know, cause you know, I feel like a lot of cocktail books get, especially back then, you know, they were such,

Andrew Roy (03:59.572)

Someone stole it, yeah.

So.

Jeffrey (04:16.512)

They were like such coffee table books, right? It was just like sexy picture recipe, sexy picture recipe, sexy picture recipe. And you know, I get every cocktail book when it comes out. And a lot of times I just like flip through and then it sits on the coffee table and then it goes into the bookcase back here and then it just sits there kind of forever. So to have my book getting passed around like that is a huge honor.

Andrew Roy (04:31.875)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (04:38.072)

That’s a good sign. So what got you into writing books? Just curious.

Jeffrey (04:39.595)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (04:43.958)

Um, you know, nothing really. I, um, I started, I started writing just because I wanted to share stuff on my blog with people, especially with people like in, like yourself, like in smaller markets, you know, cause I come from small, you know, I, I came from like a very, very small market that would make, you know, Omaha look like a, um, New York city, you know, and I wanted.

Andrew Roy (05:08.75)

Sure. I was born in a smaller market that makes Omaha look like New York City.

Jeffrey (05:14.674)

Yeah, totally. And I just wanted to be able to help other bartenders like me that didn’t have the benefit of being able to get off shift and walk down to PDT or Death & Company and see how they did things there. I guess I probably started before those bars opened. it’s just like we didn’t, there wasn’t like a great cocktail bar on every corner of every city in the world like there is now.

So I started writing that way, and it just got more more popular, so much so that I got approached by somebody that asked if I wanted to write a book. And I was like, I never really thought about it. I don’t actually really enjoy writing all that much. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s painful. It’s just like, it’s kind of torture for me. But I like having my stuff out there. think most writers will tell you that.

Andrew Roy (05:57.858)

Really?

Andrew Roy (06:09.859)

I have heard that there’s no such thing as a writing habit. It’s just you set up writing spaces and you struggle through it every time. yeah.

Jeffrey (06:16.886)

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it’s like, you know, when you talk to somebody who is like, I just love writing. You’re like, well, you don’t do it like for money or professionally, you know,

Andrew Roy (06:32.354)

Fair. Fair.

Jeffrey (06:33.364)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (06:35.534)

Yeah, writing is such a weird one. Like, all the writing I do now is for work. And even that, the propensity of people to misunderstand things so greatly, if you don’t think it through, like, I’m sure you after you put your book out have gotten 1000s of people to reach out like, did you mean this or this?

Jeffrey (06:56.156)

I get emails every single, I got an email just a couple days ago from somebody that was like, I don’t understand about the blanching of herbs for syrups. And I like, well, I felt like I explained it pretty well, but I was like, it kills the enzymes that cause browning. It doesn’t change the flavor at all. You’re basically shocking.

Andrew Roy (07:17.838)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (07:22.134)

mint or basil or whatever soft herbs for five seconds in boiling water and then immediately putting in it in ice water. And the person on the other end of the email was like, I don’t, but I don’t really want to do that. And I was, and I just wanted to be like, well, I don’t fucking care. Like don’t, don’t do it then, you know, like it doesn’t matter. I’m just like trying to help you and tell you a way to make your drinks taste better. If you don’t want them to taste better or look better, it doesn’t fucking matter to me. Just don’t invite me over to your house.

Andrew Roy (07:44.097)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (07:51.956)

You know, because I don’t want to drink your drinks, but like, you know, like, don’t even know why we’re, you know, why we’re going through this email exchange. You know, this is taking time out of my life to answer this.

Andrew Roy (07:53.324)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (08:01.048)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (08:05.474)

Yeah, I’m so glad that you love that story for two reasons. One, as I was researching for today, I actually came across again, the blanched herbs and we’re pitching drinks for our new cocktail. And I was like, this is what we need to get that mojito on there for our volume. you know, so I’m like, I’m so glad you mentioned that because that just it reminded me and I hadn’t made that syrup in forever. So

Jeffrey (08:14.55)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (08:28.832)

Do you know my mojito story with the blanched herbs and how this came about? my God, this is so great. bartenders, there’s nothing more cocky than a new bartender that has a tiny little bit of knowledge. I was too, yeah. I would say chefs are the same way, just a little bit of knowledge and they’re just like, you know.

Andrew Roy (08:32.494)

No, yeah, please

Andrew Roy (08:45.413)

huh. I was, I was that bartender. I got you. Yeah.

Jeffrey (08:54.046)

I know basically everything there is to know. And I got my first job in a fancy restaurant. I’d worked in dive bars, and I’d worked in clubs and pool halls and all this kind of stuff. And I finally got my first job in a fancy. And I’d been working at this place for six months. It was fresh juices and all this kind of stuff. And after a couple of months, I was like, I got it. I’m the king.

I understand everything. And this was like 2000 or 2001. And I was like, I want to put a mojito on the menu. Cause like I was in a small town. Mojito was like the big drink around the world at that point. You know, I was just going to blow minds in this little town with my mojito. And so I put it on the, cocktail menu. And after that first, like Friday, I was just like, this was a huge mistake, right? Like muddling the mint and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, there’s gotta be.

a better way. you know what? I’m a genius. I’m going to make a mint syrup. It’s going to be awesome. So I took, did what a lot of people do is they take hot, simple syrup and they just, you know, brew it, brew your, your mint syrup or herb syrup, like a tea, right? I’ve jammed a bunch of, know, I’ve made like a gallon. And then I took like two giant bunches of mint and I stuck them in there for 10, 15 minutes. And then I took them out and I was like, this tastes great. Tastes like mint syrup.

And within four hours, it turns brown. And then after a day or two, it’s basically black. And I was like, I’m serving these brown mojitos. I’m saving myself a lot of time, but I’m serving people brown mojitos, and they don’t really want them. But being the genius that I was, I was like, well, there’s no way to make these green unless I put some Midori in it.

Andrew Roy (10:17.676)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (10:41.918)

and call it an Asian mojito.

Andrew Roy (10:44.024)

Dude, I forgot that that’s in the book actually. Yeah. No, that’s awesome.

Jeffrey (10:46.438)

Yeah, yeah, it’s really unfortunate. Everything about that was really unfortunate, like the flavor, the name, just like, you know, the Midori, everything was just really unfortunate about this drink. But

Andrew Roy (10:57.774)

Well, it could have been like, crimped, like, man, you know, like, could have… Yeah.

Jeffrey (11:01.802)

I could have used creme de menthe, yeah, for that real chewing gum taste. Yeah, and it wasn’t until a few years later that I actually approached it with some humility and talked to chefs and was like, okay, yes, came up with the blanching thing and it works beautifully. It’s great. We use it at the bar. Yeah, make a slushy mojito. It’s like, yeah, we grab the mint syrup recipe, blanch that stuff.

Andrew Roy (11:21.23)

Currently.

Jeffrey (11:30.666)

Whizz it in the blender, strain it out fine. Got a delicious bright mint syrup. Mix it with some lime juice and some rum and you’ve got your slushy mojito there.

Andrew Roy (11:42.958)

it. You know, I do have to what are the things I really wanted to ask you about? And what are the things I respect about you? You know, speaking Midori. I feel like very few people treat cocktails of a certain age with respect. And I feel like that’s one of the things that you really got a good name for. I remember when I was first the bar back and learning to bartend.

being introduced to your amaretto sour and thinking, this is so much better than anything. And yeah, I’ve heard you actually treat Long Island ice teas with respect instead of just the kind of, you know.

Jeffrey (12:14.229)

Right.

Jeffrey (12:20.288)

Well, yeah, mean, I’m not from I’m from the era where those were just like those were just drinks that you got in a bar like, you know, and and people that started tending bar after that and came in. There was a lot of hatred. You know, it’s like I was thinking the other day about about this and the like the chef thing of like we won’t cook your steak or you well done or we won’t cook your burger well done like.

Andrew Roy (12:26.584)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (12:48.5)

Like we simply just won’t do it. There was this prevailing attitude in the mid 2000s from bartenders that like, won’t make a long, we won’t make an Amarillo sour. We like, we might even tell you to leave if you try to order an Amarillo sour. And I was like, well, you’re not really from that era. And also I think that you’re probably just not very good at your job because if you can’t make it delicious, then you know, like, what are you even doing? Right.

Andrew Roy (13:15.916)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (13:16.808)

So I set out to like, I was like, how about this? How about we just make the amaretto sour delicious and cool again? As a big kind of like, as a big sort of fuck you to those bartenders that were so cocky. You know, it’s like, you know, so cocky as to say, like refuse to make certain drinks.

Andrew Roy (13:25.198)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (13:36.93)

Yeah. And I mean, you like there’s a reason those drinks had the popularity. They did. They’re good drinks. Yeah.

Jeffrey (13:37.909)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (13:43.03)

They’re delicious. They’re great. They’re delicious. Yeah, they just you just need to update them like they were, you know, they were made with sour mix back in the day. We’ll just use use fresh juice and use all the things that we’ve learned about cocktail construction and technique over the past like 20 years and apply it. You could kind of apply it to anything. In fact, I think those drinks taste better than like, you know, a lot of like quote unquote classic cocktails. Like I think of you, Correa is like not a good drink. I think it’s just like a sloppy mess.

I don’t think, you know, it doesn’t have a lot of structure. It’s real flabby. It’s just sort of like a bunch of different alcohols in a glass. Like I would, I would rather have an amaretto sour or like even a properly made Long Island, which was really just like a Collins with a, with a float of coke, know.

Andrew Roy (14:26.104)

Yeah, essentially, yeah. Yeah. mean, Vucari does look sexy on a menu though. You have that X, like, yeah, I get it, you know? Yeah.

Jeffrey (14:34.418)

It looks good. It sounds good. I think there’s a lot of Emperor’s new clothes with that drink and a few other drinks where it’s just like, think people think that they’re supposed to, especially like bartend, you know, new like craft cocktail bartenders. I think they think that they’re supposed to like that drink, but it’s like, tell me, tell me what is great about that drink. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a shittier, like Rob Roy.

Andrew Roy (14:56.056)

Yeah. You know, that’s,

That honestly is kind of how I feel about the Boulevardier. Like I get down on an agrony, but I’m like, I don’t know. If I’m drinking any dark spirits, I’m gonna drink them in a Manhattan or straight or maybe on the rocks, you know? But I mean, that’s just me. That’s me. Yeah.

Jeffrey (15:05.814)

Mmm.

Jeffrey (15:14.102)

I find a Boulevardier with a really nice high-proof bourbon. Like a 100, 100 to 110 bourbon is real sexy, real nice. You gotta have that bite in there. You’re used to having it with gin that’s close to 100 proof. It doesn’t work when you slap in an 80 proof bourbon or something.

Andrew Roy (15:26.99)

Well, I don’t think I’ve ever tried it high proof, so, okay.

Jeffrey (15:40.628)

which a lot of people use their well bourbon to make it, but throw some hundred in there and throw some Evan Williams bottled and bond in there and give it a shot and tell me, you might actually, you might change your tune on that one. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (15:40.888)

Sure.

Andrew Roy (15:52.052)

Okay, fair enough. What is your like, do you have a set method for how you taste and develop cocktails? Or do you just know just kind of throw stuff at the wall? See what happens?

Jeffrey (16:05.174)

It usually starts with like sketches, you know, if I’m doing a completely new menu from scratch, you know, that it’s always like a response to the space. It’s a response to the time. It’s a response to the food. If there’s a food program, it’s response to the concept of the restaurant. And it just starts out with like rough sketches on paper.

Andrew Roy (16:28.674)

Mm.

Jeffrey (16:29.814)

You know, and like sort of like slots, right? I think of a menu in terms of like slots. I’m like, this is the sort of spirit driven, maybe it’s herbaceous slot. This is the sort of like tall, cool, refreshing slot. This is the, you know, right on down the line. And then, you know, from there, then I start filling in, okay, well.

you bourbon sounds really good in this slots or, you know, American whiskey. And it might change. It might become rye. It might even become scotch or something like that. But you just sort of start like everything starts to kind of like gel, you know.

Andrew Roy (17:08.611)

so you have your big pieces, but I was actually more asking like actual drink. So let’s say you get to the like, I want a spirits cocktail. Maybe it’s going to be whiskey. Do you do you start with like a classic and riff on it? Or do you at this point have so many that you’ve done that you start substituting in items or?

Jeffrey (17:14.934)

Mm.

Jeffrey (17:23.87)

Usually.

Jeffrey (17:27.766)

I have my catalog of stuff that I’ve done that may or may not be based on other things, loosely based on other things. And then I have the whole catalog of classic cocktails. And so from there, I’ve never understood this idea of just starting from scratch, scratch, scratch, just pouring stuff into a

glass until it tastes good is just like really, it’s just sort of dumb. It’s like reinventing how to like build a house every time you build a house. It’s like, there’s there, there are, there are structure, there are basic structures that work, you know, and you might, you might end up discovering a different way to do things, but trying to do it from the ground up with every single cocktail is just, I’ve, I’ve had those drinks and I’ve had those menus and they’re real sloppy and, and usually pretty terrible.

Andrew Roy (17:58.445)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (18:07.182)

Mm.

Andrew Roy (18:22.774)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, do you think about building cocktails kind of like architecture? Because I know you have the background in architecture. Yeah.

Jeffrey (18:31.126)

They do. Yeah. Um, sometime I’m any not, not, I don’t draw any like direct correlations. Like people always want me to say, like, you know, you got to start with a foundation and that foundation is gin, you know, like, I just think that’s like, it makes a great sound, but it’s just kind of a dumb way to think about cocktails. Like, you know, cocktails, a cocktail on a house is a house or a building is a building. Um, but I do apply the design process that I, you know, that’s the thing about going to design school is learning the design process.

Andrew Roy (18:38.35)

You

Andrew Roy (18:43.458)

It would make a good sound bite.

Andrew Roy (18:51.618)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (19:00.918)

And also being able to not have any sort of ego around the thing that you’re trying to make is something that you learn in school. Like you have to like really detach. just becomes a, it becomes an object that you have to sort of like look at and you can’t think of it as like yours. Cause when you think of it as like yours, it gets very personal and people get really defensive and you you can’t, you can’t be flexible and change things.

Andrew Roy (19:20.502)

Is it? Yeah.

Jeffrey (19:30.708)

You know, I can make a drink and I can taste it and go like, that’s gross. That doesn’t taste good. You know? And so I don’t get locked into anything. So I think learning the design process in school was very, very helpful for me.

Andrew Roy (19:47.074)

Yeah. So that is one characteristic that you have that I really admire your ability to, I’m trying to think of a nice way to say it, but just kind of no bullshit say it as it is, but you know, not behind hide behind all the pomp and circumstance. I think that’s a really great quality. it’s yeah.

Jeffrey (20:02.59)

I see those guys. know those guys. I often some of them are even friends of mine, but I think that professionally a lot of that stuff just makes you look like a clown. You know. And it’s just like this is just this is like we’re not, you know, people have said this many times, but it’s just like we’re not curing cancer, right? We’re like we’re probably causing cancer. So take taking this job super seriously. It’s just like, you know, I just want to make delicious things for people to enjoy.

Andrew Roy (20:23.106)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (20:31.486)

You know, if I have if I have a bar full of people all sitting around like smelling their drinks and kind of talking about like the flavor profile of it, I feel like that’s a failure for a bar. But I’ve got people just like that was delicious, just like pounding cocktails. That’s a huge success. That’s a bar. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (20:48.65)

a bar. You know, speaking of sounding or looking like a fool, I wanted to ask about drinking distilled. What led you to write that book? Because if I had that book when I was in college, I would have avoided many. it would have helped so much. Yeah. What was the impetus for that? Like, is it just you see all these people that need kind of a guide out there?

Jeffrey (20:57.562)

Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (21:03.156)

would have been helpful, right?

Yeah.

Jeffrey (21:11.602)

Yeah, I mean, I had been writing stuff like that for Playboy for a long time. You know, they always wanted, know, every couple months, they wanted one sort of like you’re doing it wrong piece, you know, it’s just like how to order in a bar, how to how to, you know, how to show up to a backyard barbecue with some cocktails or how to have a party. And so I had, you know, I had a lot of like opinionated writing on that. And that publisher approached me directly and they were like,

this is the book that we want you to write. And I was just like, sure, sounds great. I can crank this out in a weekend.

Andrew Roy (21:44.334)

I’ve written that book, yeah.

Andrew Roy (21:50.91)

right? I so I’ve got I had it saved because I had to share this with you. think I laughed out loud when I read this. But once the sun goes down, you can’t drink a Bloody Mary in public. Only men with lower back tattoos do that. Yeah, it’s like, it’s like, wow, he he put this in print. This is fantastic. Yeah.

Jeffrey (22:06.688)

Oops.

Jeffrey (22:11.324)

I, I, you know, I’ve, I’ve since I’ve since like re-examined my stance on the Bloody Mary and now we have, we have a slightly different Bloody Mary at the bar that’s always on the menu called the all day Bloody Mary. That’s meant for it’s really super light and zesty.

Andrew Roy (22:17.954)

there.

Jeffrey (22:30.32)

and not I still don’t really like Bloody Marys because I think it’s like drinking a jar of marinara sauce it’s just like thick you know I just don’t want like vodka gazpacho it’s just like but we we do one the recipes on my website it’s just like super light you know it’s rather the you know we’ve sort of stretched out the tomato juice watered it down essentially but then beefed it back up with msg and citric acid so that you get

you still get a lot of that like body and texture and like that that mouth feel that big, you know, umami flavor, but it’s not just like thick gloop. You know, no, yeah, it’s like my my preferred soup. Yeah, I my preferred I really prefer the the Caesar, the Canadian, the Clamado drink. You familiar with the Caesar? Basically a

Andrew Roy (23:07.982)

Yeah, it’s not ketchup. It’s yeah, or maybe soup would be a better way to say yeah.

Andrew Roy (23:21.496)

Hmm. I, yeah, I don’t drink a lot of tomato ones. I probably haven’t ever even made one, honestly.

Jeffrey (23:27.636)

Yeah, it’s made with Clamato, which is clam juice tomato cocktail. It sounds kind of gross, but it’s really just like a super light, zesty tomato drink. And all the other rules are the same. It’s basically just like Bloody Mary ingredients with Clamato instead of regular tomato juice. And it is awesome. You can drink it.

Andrew Roy (23:34.541)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (23:51.996)

Any time a year, any time of day, it’s just light and zesty and refreshing, which sounds weird for a tomato-based beverage. But check out the Caesar. It is awesome. Unless you have a shellfish allergy, in which case, maybe don’t do that. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (24:04.472)

Okay, I could do that. No, no, no, Audrey’s here. you know, that actually does bring something I wanted to ask you about. so in 2023, I actually stepped back, no, 2013. I said that way too far. I stopped bartending full time and starting transitioning to the Psalm thing, which got me into management. It ended me up here in general manager.

Jeffrey (24:16.598)

Mm.

Jeffrey (24:25.951)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (24:32.32)

That’s cool. Very cool.

Andrew Roy (24:34.242)

And I often wonder, did I leave bartending? Did I leave that active service too quickly? And I wanted to ask, because it seems like you’ve tended bar pretty regularly. Do you still tend bar? Yeah.

Jeffrey (24:47.826)

Yeah, I’m on a little break right now, but next year, next April, will be my 30th anniversary behind the bar, like full time. It’s crazy.

Andrew Roy (24:56.418)

Yeah. And I often wonder if, you know, that pressure, but also that drive, you know, be in front of people. If I really miss something, cause I feel like you get a lot with that nightly.

Jeffrey (25:08.832)

How long did you tend bar for before you segued into management?

Andrew Roy (25:11.95)

So I was a bartender, I was a bar back and helping out a little bit before I legally should have when I was 19. And then they made me full bartender 21. then I, so through that whole time, was bartending at one place, the Credo in Santa Fe. Bar manager followed all of your stuff. So we had the barrel-aged cocktails. He was super into all that. Then,

Jeffrey (25:21.08)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (25:33.311)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (25:37.952)

Cool.

Andrew Roy (25:41.824)

I started stepping back because I got into that wine thing and started following that route, getting certifications. I still did it part-time and then about 2018, I stepped away entirely. so I guess the long answer to your question is about nine to 10 years. Yeah.

Jeffrey (25:48.992)

Totally.

Jeffrey (25:54.486)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (26:01.696)

That’s a long time. I feel like after five years, you’re basically a veteran bartender. I think that if you haven’t gotten really good at it after 10 years, you’re probably not going to. And I think it sounds like you did get really good at it. I mean, there’s always more to learn, I don’t think you have to do it for 30 years to be really great. In fact, I know bartenders that are way better than I am that have been doing it for four or five years.

Andrew Roy (26:10.988)

years.

Andrew Roy (26:27.01)

Sure.

Andrew Roy (26:31.412)

Mm Yeah. Maybe it’s just that I actually miss it. That’s probably more of what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffrey (26:32.702)

You know.

Jeffrey (26:36.618)

You might actually miss it. Yeah, but I mean, you’re probably in a position where you can jump back there and you could probably pull a, I mean, I know you’re going into the kitchen today. I’m sure you could get behind the bar if you wanted.

Andrew Roy (26:45.688)

Yeah, I mean, usually if I back there, it’s something’s gone wrong, horribly wrong. And yeah, I’m helping out the well, our things are going horribly right. And it’s Christmas Eve, and I’m helping the well. That’s probably more what it is. Yes. Yeah. Which it’s a business where things can go horribly right.

Jeffrey (26:50.791)

no, yeah.

Jeffrey (26:59.936)

Totally. Yeah. You’re grateful that there’s… Grateful to have a second or third well, right?

Andrew Roy (27:07.178)

Yeah, every time. Yeah, so wanted to kind of transition to because this is something I’ve asked a couple people and it’s an answer. It’s something I don’t really have a good answer to. How did you learn to taste? Was it just on the job in the trenches? Or did you ever take any courses? Have anyone that mentored you or?

Jeffrey (27:09.44)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (27:20.811)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Jeffrey (27:29.858)

No, I’ve always just been really good at it. I’ve just always enjoy it. You know, I’m a total like gourmand, you know, as opposed to gourmet. I just really enjoy like eating and drinking and I enjoy the way things taste. You know, I’m not like a super taster. You know, I don’t have that that gene that quite frankly, I don’t want because it I think those people are burdened by that ability to taste, you know, a lot of those compounds that

Andrew Roy (27:32.142)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (27:59.35)

the rest of the public can’t taste, but I tasted a very high level and I just, and I also have like a crazy weird, kind of like flavor memory where it’s like almost photographic. Like I can think about something that I’ve eaten and enjoyed or even not enjoyed something that I’ve had in my mouth in the past. And I can like sort of conjure up that flavor in my mind. Like it’s very

strange that ability. And so, you know, I’ve just always been, you know, like I’ve always been cooking. like cooked a lot when I was a kid. I just really like beverages. I love wine. I drink tea and I coffee and

You know, it’s just like, it’s just always, I just love the experience of flavor and tasting things. So never, I never took a class. I don’t really know even if I understand the reason for taking those classes. think those classes are designed to give you a language so that you can discuss with other people. but I of course like having my own language.

Andrew Roy (28:51.214)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (29:04.508)

that stuff, you know, because I just I can think of words that are more evocative than like, you know, white flowers and, you know, minerality, you know, I get I get a little bit more descriptive, sometimes in a bad way. You know, I’m the head judge of the San Francisco World Spirits Competition. And I’m the guy that’s always like,

Andrew Roy (29:05.549)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (29:21.986)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (29:30.782)

You know, because we get some, you know, we get some great things and we get some, sometimes we get some weird stuff, some stuff that’s not that great. And I’m the guy that can like compare it to something unfavorably and make everybody in the room laugh. It’s a blessing and a curse.

Andrew Roy (29:42.338)

Yeah. Well, no, I mean that that is why I was asking because I mean to get head judge or other bunch of different head judges or is it like you are the head judge and you have man, how did you get that job? Just

Jeffrey (29:55.146)

the head judge. Yeah, we have. Yeah, that’s so funny that you ask, you know, I I had done some work with the organization before I started judging. knew, you know, the people in there. And and this was back when it was very, very small. There were like maybe 25 judges under 30 judges, like 2010, I think, was my first year. And, you know, the first year was like

Andrew Roy (30:14.478)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (30:24.906)

We used to do a dinner, right? A big dinner at some restaurant in San Francisco. And there was always like a little happy hour beforehand and we would show up. Well, I showed up for the very first one and I didn’t really know a lot of people in the room. know, like I had met Dale DeGroff and I met, you know, David Wondrich and, know.

Tony Abugano. They didn’t really like know me super well. And I walk in, I’ve got a drink and I’m just kind of like standing with my back against the wall, like a little nervous, you know, I’m sort of like a little feel like a little kid.

David Wondrich is he he’s walking in and I’m like, Oh gosh, I’ve done events with Dave. You know, I’ve met Dave a few times. I know Dave and he’s kind of walking in the room, like backwards a little bit, like talking to people. And then he sort of like gets almost right to me he stops and he turns around and he sees me and he goes, Morgan dollar. What the fuck are you doing here? I was like, I was like, I don’t know. I have no idea. No idea why I’m here. Um, but I really shined that first year. was like very.

like good at it. they liked working. know, that’s part of the thing is like you can be really good. But if people don’t like working with you, you just don’t get invited back to things. You know, I’ve seen judges come and go. I’ve seen judges sort of like rubbed everybody the wrong way and just sort of kind of like not get the invite. But I’ve been you know, I’ve been with the organization now for 15 years.

Andrew Roy (31:29.198)

Mm.

Andrew Roy (31:40.312)

That makes sense, yeah.

Jeffrey (31:55.574)

And, you know, I’m the head judge of the San Francisco one, Ivy Mix is the head judge of the New York version, which is same organization, but it looks like a slightly smaller version that they hold in New York. And so when we get together in San Francisco, she and I are sort of like up in front of the head of the class together for a little bit, which is really cool because Ivy is an old friend of mine. And yeah, I mean, it’s just.

It’s just a really cool, fun time to taste all these spirits and be around some of the best people in the business, who are also, and I’m learning stuff all the time. I’m getting to sit with people that are like, bijou experts, or I tasted it with this woman that is a,

Andrew Roy (32:28.846)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (32:44.414)

an agave spirit like master from Mexico. And she just like blew my mind tasting with her. was like, you know, she was, were getting, giving stuff. We got some, I remember we got this one product. It was a blend of two varietals that I, one I had heard of the other one I had never heard of. And she sits down at the table. She picks it up and sniffs. And she said, I think that this is this and this just by smelling it.

Andrew Roy (32:50.99)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (33:10.696)

She knew that it was two different varieties of agave. And I was just like, I really, I don’t know what I’m doing. But it’s just, it’s always cool to be, for me, it’s always cool to be around people that are better at the job than I am, you know, cause that means I’m going to learn something. You never want to be like the, best or the smartest in the room. It’s just not, you know, you’re in the wrong room if you’re the smartest person in there.

Andrew Roy (33:15.318)

On a new level, yeah.

Yes.

Andrew Roy (33:32.333)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (33:36.364)

Nah, I mean, everyone’s better at something than you are, you know? That’s what I always tell myself. yeah. What is your superpower? What is the thing that you’re the best at when you’re in the room?

Jeffrey (33:40.042)

Totally. Yep.

Jeffrey (33:49.096)

Jesus. I don’t. I don’t know. I think I’m I I come from like, you know, dive bar party bar background. So I I’m often one of the more fun bartenders in the room, unfortunately, you know.

Andrew Roy (33:50.03)

I know.

Andrew Roy (34:11.234)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (34:12.148)

I’m like, let’s throw a party. Let’s not be too serious. think a lot of younger bartenders want to get super serious, you know, and I’m just like, it’s alcohol. Let’s have a party. Let’s turn up the music, turn down the lights, crank up the drinks, make some jokes. You know, bartenders used to goof around. Totally. Yeah, bartenders used to goof around and have fun and and not now it’s like I’ve had so many experiences where I go into a bar and it’s just like very stiff.

Andrew Roy (34:21.934)

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, remember that it’s hospitality, you know? Yeah.

Jeffrey (34:41.366)

You know, that I don’t enjoy. Drink your $25 martini in silence, you know, and some guy will come up with his hands behind his back and be like, is everything all right over here? And you’re like, yeah, I guess.

Andrew Roy (34:41.496)

Yeah, you drink your $25 martini and then you get out. Yes.

Andrew Roy (34:54.958)

Well, I am that guy now so unfortunate. Yeah, no. No, yeah. Well, the guy that comes and says everything all right, but not that stiff. Yeah. What do you think? You know, what are some of the big trends we should be looking at now? What you know, look back 2030. What is the thing that’s like, I called it knew that was coming.

Jeffrey (35:00.34)

Nah. I doubt that.

Jeffrey (35:08.72)

Sure. Yeah.

Jeffrey (35:20.374)

I don’t know. I get this a lot, you know, like if I can if I can predict the future or tell, you know, every every like the end of every year, I get a bunch of interview requests from like magazines and stuff that are like, what’s going to be the hot new trend for 2026? I’m like, I don’t know, whatever people just start drinking a lot of. You know, I’ve always been on the like.

Andrew Roy (35:23.64)

shirt.

Andrew Roy (35:39.467)

Mm, yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

Jeffrey (35:44.818)

You know, I’m lucky that I’ve always sort of been on the bleeding edge of things. You know, it’s like the espresso martinis, obviously huge right now. We put it on when I put it on my menu back in 2014 at Pepi Lomoco. That was very, very weird. Like bartenders thought I was like completely insane for putting an espresso martini. Like nobody did that. You know.

Andrew Roy (36:01.374)

You

Jeffrey (36:09.49)

So I don’t, you know, I don’t know what’s, I don’t even really know what’s going to be big. I feel like there are a lot of trends that are not great trends. There’s a lot of trends to expensive cocktails. Like you were saying, like I just think.

Andrew Roy (36:09.816)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (36:23.315)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s a thing.

Jeffrey (36:25.842)

I think I think they’re bullshit. You know, our menu starts at $9. And like, yes, it goes up to 16 for like a really good Elijah Craig small batch old fashioned with a giant clear ice cube. But that’s that’s the top. That’s the max. Right. Like most of the drinks like are kind of in that like $12.

Andrew Roy (36:30.188)

Mmm.

Andrew Roy (36:36.27)

Mm.

Jeffrey (36:45.918)

like to keep it like in the sort of like 12 to 14 on the high end. I go to a bar and I see like $18 and I get it and I’m disappointed and I don’t really want to go back and I think it sours. It’s you know, I think that people are a little soured on what we do because of the prices and just the experience. You know, like I’m going to charge you $18 for a

Andrew Roy (37:07.203)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (37:09.332)

Martini and then it’s just gonna it’s not gonna be fun the bartender is not going to be you know the bartender be pleasant but just like kind of standoffish and I think that’s a really negative trend

Andrew Roy (37:21.686)

Yeah, they’re easier ways to spend 18 bucks. Yeah.

Jeffrey (37:24.936)

Yeah, I think I would say that like, you know, lot of the things that I’ve done have been responses to negative trends. And those have become trend, like, you know, you talk about the Amaretto Sour, it’s just like, that was a response to bartenders being dicks.

Andrew Roy (37:31.214)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (37:39.902)

You know, and now it’s now that’s the that’s the industry standard recipe for the Amaretto sour around the world, which is very cool. But that was a response to like this negative thing. Like I think that if more people can respond to these twenty five dollar martinis with some twelve dollar martinis, we might have a trend there. We might get people back in bars drinking more, having more fun, spending more.

Andrew Roy (38:00.11)

Mm hmm. No. No, I’m thinking too. I think it was at Clyde Commons that you stopped charging for beer backs when people asked for them, which I thought that was great. Yeah.

Jeffrey (38:10.514)

I, when I got the, they, had been through three bar managers before I started and, the previous bar managers charged like a couple of dollars for like a little thing. And I come from dive bars where like you would never.

Andrew Roy (38:18.126)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (38:26.248)

you would never charge for a beer back. You’d get run out of town. And I was raised by, we had our crowd at those first bars that I worked at, there were a lot of Midwest, Wisconsin people, especially in those bars. And that’s not how you do it. You don’t charge a Wisconsin person for a beer back. You’ll never see them again.

Andrew Roy (38:49.806)

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Jeffrey (38:55.188)

Yeah, and it should just be like, you know, a beer back should be like three to four ounces of beer. It’s not like, you know, of just whatever kind of crappy beer. would be weird to charge for that. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (39:05.398)

Mm hmm. But I mean, you know, there are places to do it. Like, like when I see like there’s a charge for like pineapple juice or like, you know, that sort of thing on a receipt, I’m always like, okay.

Jeffrey (39:16.182)

There’s one that I think is bizarre that you see every once in a while and that’s an upcharge if you wanted on the rocks because they do a larger pour of whiskey on on I you see a lot of like weird like kind of like small chain corporate places do this where it’s like Yeah, if you order a maker’s markets 12 bucks, but if you order it on the rocks, it’s 14 Because we pour like an extra half ounce or something. It’s like what the fuck what what is that? The dumbest thing I’ve ever heard

Andrew Roy (39:24.92)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (39:37.837)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (39:43.456)

You

Well, to be fair, that’s what my restaurant does, but I wasn’t the one that instituted that. I, yeah, I could, can either confirm or deny.

Jeffrey (39:51.266)

Ooh, so if I, so if I walk into this restaurant with a friend, we both sit at the bar, we both want Maker’s Mark. One of us wants it just on regular hotel ice and the other wants it neat. Those are two different sized pours and two different prices.

Andrew Roy (40:01.122)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (40:10.668)

That’s what they want us to do. agreed. mean, so there’s, there’s pros and cons. I’m the GM, but it’s four different restaurants that are part of a restaurant group and you win some battles and you lose some. And I’ve, I’ve learned to run away and fight another day on some things. And yeah.

Jeffrey (40:13.59)

understand that at all.

Jeffrey (40:23.37)

Mm-hmm.

I know.

Jeffrey (40:30.428)

Yep, I’ve never, I’ve always kind of worked for mom and pop places. I’ve never really worked, you know, I’ve worked with some, some larger corporations, but I’ve never like had them as my boss. So don’t really, but it just like, I feel like somebody should just explain to like the person at the top and just say like, you know,

Andrew Roy (40:42.894)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (40:50.172)

Even just from a legal standpoint, it’s like, this guy got so much. Why did this guy get so much drunker than this guy? They both had the same drinks. well, this guy got ice with his. Like it just doesn’t. It doesn’t make any sense. Anyway, we don’t have to. You can just you can just you can just send somebody can anonymously send this to the the people in charge.

Andrew Roy (41:03.0)

Yeah, yeah, well. It was like.

Andrew Roy (41:10.872)

that. Yes, the podcast that got me fired, unfortunately. No, no, no, I don’t care. It’s I mean,

Jeffrey (41:15.606)

you know, you feel free to cut this out if you need to.

Andrew Roy (41:23.81)

Yes. Yeah, well, we’ll just keep going here. Yeah, I don’t even remember what I was gonna ask.

Jeffrey (41:27.508)

Yeah. Well, that’s, you know, it brings up an interesting topic, which is, you know, I, I’ve found in a lot of bars, you know, cause I’ve, I’ve come into bars. I’ve opened a lot of places, but I also come in, I’ve come into places, and, know, started working with the team before. And there’s one thing in bars and restaurants that I think is, is, a little bit of a,

You know, I won’t say epidemic, it’s just a real issue is the attitude of, well, that’s the way we’ve always done it without having anybody with a critical, you know, some sort of critical thinking role that can just say, well, what if, you know, why don’t we just talk it out? Like, OK, that’s the way we’ve always done it. But is there a better way to do it? You know, it’s like in bars, it’s like, well, we always just keep this here.

Andrew Roy (42:01.806)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (42:20.046)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (42:24.082)

OK, well, it seems like we have to walk three steps over there to get it 50 times a night. What if we put it here where it’s closer to our hands? Well, it’s like, well, it’s always been over there. I hear that. I hear that. But, you know, it could be here. And I think it’s a real thing in bars and restaurants. The.

Andrew Roy (42:31.458)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (42:37.154)

Fair, yeah.

Yeah.

Jeffrey (42:47.356)

inability to be flexible. It’s like we were saying with with like design, like people just get so attached to, you know, but we always keep that over there. Like, you know, that’s where that goes. It’s like, well, let’s have a little critical thing. Let’s detach ourselves from the idea that that that pepper mill lives over there. And what if we put it over here? Try it out. Yeah. Suddenly, we’re making drinks a little bit more quickly. We’re we’re we’re spending more time with our guests because we’re not walking around the bar looking for shit all the time.

Andrew Roy (43:09.71)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (43:17.214)

You know, it’s just a, it’s a thing that I notice in bars and restaurants, the inability to just like detach.

Andrew Roy (43:23.02)

You know, this has turned into my personal coaching session, I, so I will circle back with you. It is corporate. move slow, but I’m going to try and get them to stop doing that. So I’ll, I’ll let you know, give it a month or two. I’ll let you know what they do, but I think, I think that I could argue that point. And yeah, that’s yeah.

Jeffrey (43:39.136)

Please do, please do.

Jeffrey (43:44.894)

Well, you know, not, we don’t need to dwell on this because this is such a minor thing, but one question is, do you get pushback from guests? Do guests seem to understand that or not understand that?

Andrew Roy (43:56.118)

If I had to, I don’t think that they even really know or notice a lot of the time. Yeah. It would be, it’d be people that are really steeped in the bar world. You know, someone who’s like, look at this. But it also, you know, it’s a mix we get single and like couples at the bar seats about 50, but mostly we are dying in business. It’s a lot of people with expense accounts. It’s

Jeffrey (43:58.908)

Notice? Yeah, sure.

Jeffrey (44:07.87)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey (44:15.382)

Mm-hmm

Jeffrey (44:19.51)

And you’re higher end. You’re not getting people like penny pinching coming into your bar. Like what’s with the extra? What’s the extra $2 up charge or whatever? Yeah.

Andrew Roy (44:23.71)

No, not really. Yeah. I mean, it’s a it’s a nicer steakhouse in a in a city that’s known for steak, you know, like, so it’s like a bunch of bottles of wine. And, know, if they get cocktails, it’s something on the rocks or maybe one of the listed ones right before they go to wine with the meal. So but but I think, yeah, as I’m listening to you, I’m like, all right, I, you know, I can do this. I can also say Jeffrey Morton. He told me to do.

Jeffrey (44:33.712)

Mm-hmm. Totally.

Jeffrey (44:41.758)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jeffrey (44:53.078)

They’re going to hate me. They’re going to, you’re going to give me a terrible name.

Andrew Roy (44:53.486)

No, no, I think the bartender is always already like you because I’ve been telling them to read your books. So how have people have you noticed any people like the trend of younger generation not drinking? Has that been something that you’ve noticed in your spots or? Yeah.

Jeffrey (45:00.88)

awesome.

Jeffrey (45:12.874)

Definitely. Yeah. mean, I think, you know, I think that I have a lot of thoughts on the NA movement. First of all, I think it’s great. think that, you know, people being I’m more healthy than I used to be. And I’m glad that so many other people are. I think that this idea of charging people like 14, 15 dollars for an NA cocktail is really

Andrew Roy (45:26.766)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (45:38.574)

absurd.

Jeffrey (45:39.688)

absurd and it’s just not doing us any favors as a community. I think that getting that price down, people are always really kind of wowed by the fact that our NA cocktails, which we have quite a few, are

less are less expensive than their alcohol counterparts, you know, and super delicious. Like we approach them, you know, like we’re into it. We you can tell by reading our menu that we are into your decision to not drink alcohol and we fully support it. But I think that

Andrew Roy (46:00.142)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (46:10.606)

Hmm.

Jeffrey (46:15.518)

I think that bars need to respond to the NA movement a little bit better, even beyond just having NA beverages. mean, make them fun. Make the whole make the whole experience fun. you know, people should still be people should still have a space to go and collect and gather and be with one another and not be priced out of it or kind of like fund out of it. You know, like turn up, turn up the church, just turn up the fun, bring people back.

Andrew Roy (46:39.95)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (46:44.174)

Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, I mean, that at least is one area that we’re aligned with you. So our NA beverages are cheap, cheaper, and our NA cocktails are too. I’m like,

Jeffrey (46:55.094)

It’s bizarre to see a $16 NA cocktail on a menu, you know?

Andrew Roy (46:58.646)

Yeah, for why? Unless there’s gold leaf in it or something weird. But what are your NA cocktails at this moment? You have like a bunch.

Jeffrey (47:03.54)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (47:10.07)

We got three. We’re really into it’s it’s it’s it’s nationwide, but it’s from like the Seattle area and it’s called the Pathfinder and it’s it is the best. In a spirit I’ve ever had and it’s it’s more like a an Amaro than.

I think one thing I think is this idea of trying to replicate spirits in a non-alcoholic version is sort of, it’s just never gonna work, Like NA gin, NA tequila, non-alcoholic whiskey, just, doesn’t, yeah, you’re missing it. And so you’re always, always, always gonna be comparing it to.

Andrew Roy (47:54.318)

There’s not that heat, isn’t there? Yeah, it’s, yeah.

Jeffrey (48:01.618)

alcoholic whiskey or alcoholic gin. And Pathfinder is just like, we’re just going to do this completely different. It’s a hemp based product. It’s bitter. It’s dark. It’s, it’s a little bit sweet. It’s just like super full bodied, which means it’s really versatile. and you feel like you’re getting something for your money more so than just like flavored water.

There’s a lot of flavored. There’s a lot of thirty five dollars bottles of flavored water out there. And I just don’t I don’t think that that’s how we’re going to save the industry. You know, so, yeah, Pathfinder, check it out. You can order it online. You can have it shipped to your bar. It is really, really, really, really good. So it works really super well in a sour. We also do we kind of sub it for.

Andrew Roy (48:36.983)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (48:44.914)

sick.

Jeffrey (48:56.778)

dark rum like blackstrap rum and do a Jungle Bird, an NA Jungle Bird with another product from here called Wilderton, which is a kind of a red aperitivo sort of Campari style. Also really, really, really good, really flavorful. But you’re just never gonna really have like a pure non-alcoholic margarita that people are just gonna go nuts for, right? You know?

Andrew Roy (49:20.546)

Yeah, yeah, because they’re always missing one thing. That alcohol is a dimension. Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey (49:25.45)

The bite, you gotta have the bite. So I see, you know, I like seeing products that sort of steer away from that and say, we’re going to do something completely different.

Andrew Roy (49:34.094)

Have you ever tried any of the like precanned in a beverage options? Cause I’ve had a couple, yeah. Oh, sorry.

Jeffrey (49:38.678)

Yeah, in fact. Yeah, I just got liars sent me a case of their gin and tonic and we keep it in the fridge and. It’s good, it’s really good. Yeah, they’re there. They’re in a cans are really cool. I’m trying to think they do like a like a Moscow mule sort of thing, I believe they do a few. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (49:47.436)

Liars is what I tried. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (49:59.53)

Mm I think they had a Negroni style one too, if I remember correctly. Yeah.

Jeffrey (50:04.81)

Pathfinder does a Pathfinder Negroni style that’s in a can that’s also very, very good. It’s in one of those like little small, it’s almost like the size of like a tomato juice or pineapple juice can. So it’s truly like one serving. We’ll keep those in the fridge and we’ll like throw, we’ll even like throw it over like a big cube at home and do like an orange twist and do the whole thing and have it before dinner. It’s great.

Andrew Roy (50:16.376)

That’s cool.

Andrew Roy (50:23.736)

place.

So you think… No,

Jeffrey (50:27.398)

And the other thing is, you know, you can throw in a little alcohol if you want, you know, and you don’t have to make a choice one way or the other. It’s it’s doesn’t have to be the great thing about NA is it you don’t have to be completely NA or completely a right. mean, you can mix it up. You could have a you could have yourself a low proof Negroni.

Andrew Roy (50:43.054)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (50:48.588)

Hmm, just a splash of gin or something like that. Hmm.

Jeffrey (50:49.971)

You know?

Totally. You can do a splash of gin with a non-alcoholic. There’s this is really good. Free spirits. Vermouth, red vermouth is really nice. Alcohol free. And so you could do, you know, we’ll do an ounce of that, an ounce of Wilderton aperitivo and an ounce of gin, like Beefeater, like 80 proof gin.

Andrew Roy (51:06.57)

Is it alcohol free?

Hmm

Jeffrey (51:20.662)

And suddenly you’ve got a three ounce cocktail that’s got barely any alcohol in it. I like mixing and matching like that. you can build a drink that way. You can build your night that way. can start. Sometimes I’ll go out. I’ll have a martini. And then I’m just like, I’m too old to drink more than one martini. So I might switch to like.

Andrew Roy (51:27.214)

That’s really cool. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (51:43.363)

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

Jeffrey (51:47.176)

an N.A. drink and then I might switch to a low alcohol, low ABV drink.

Andrew Roy (51:51.97)

Yeah, I think I think it was you that said like, never understood the three martini lunch, which yeah, just blows my mind. Day drinking and what? Mm hmm. Yeah. And that’s why, you know, I kind of think that, you know, I’m thinking pre-prohibition to after just the amount that Americans drink. Yeah, we still drink a lot, but it shrunk so much. Like, I think we might just be at another inflection point where it’s like

Jeffrey (52:00.256)

Those dudes were wasted. Wasted.

Jeffrey (52:15.953)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (52:19.5)

We’ll look back at 20 years from now and be like, man, they were drinking a lot, you know, less than before prohibition, but still way more than it’s probably helpful for most people and most day to day life.

Jeffrey (52:30.6)

Or it could be other things. I see people like I see huge weed clouds coming out of cars that I’m driving behind. And I think at some point we might be like, we maybe maybe smoking weed and driving is not a great idea. Like right now it’s just it almost feels like it went from like being the worst thing in the world to now completely lawless, which which is sort of like what happened after prohibition. Right. Like, you know,

Andrew Roy (52:37.963)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (52:46.03)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (52:55.246)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey (52:58.294)

lot of people drinking during prohibition, a lot of people smoking weed during marijuana prohibition, then it becomes legal and people go fucking nuts. And I think that like, you know, hopefully 20 years from now, people will be like, we don’t really want you driving around, we don’t really want you driving a car 70 miles an hour, just like ripped on weed. You know?

Andrew Roy (53:05.186)

Hmm.

Andrew Roy (53:21.502)

Mm Yeah. Now, who will be the Jeffrey Morgenthau who what repeal day is there for marijuana? It’s all just piecemeal. Yeah. So yeah, well.

Jeffrey (53:32.704)

gosh. Alcohol is so much easier to build and have flavors and things around. know, weed is just like one hit sometimes and you’re just you’re on the floor.

Andrew Roy (53:46.306)

That is an interesting point though. I wonder how many people in the younger generation are just smoking instead of drinking. So I’m sure a decent amount. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Jeffrey (53:52.968)

A lot, a lot, a lot, but bars, know, bars always persist. Bars have hard times and bars have great times, but bars are always there. will always need bars and restaurants. We will always need that.

Andrew Roy (54:07.694)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (54:11.854)

Well, I did want to ask too before, because I know we’re getting close on time. What is it like working in Portland? Because one of my managers used to run a restaurant out there. so I haven’t asked him, he shut it down. It didn’t work out. he said part of the, you know, he moved back over here. Part of the reason was he could never really get it going. And the minimum wage is so high.

Jeffrey (54:22.281)

yeah? Which one? Do you know?

Andrew Roy (54:39.054)

He said he was always trying to figure out how to do things because apparently there’s no like tip credit to and it’s it just sounds like a crazy and maybe it’s just that I’m not from there and I don’t see how it works. But it just yeah, it’s like $18 an hour when he was there or something.

Jeffrey (54:56.278)

Yeah, it’s a lot, but it’s really nice to make a living wage. you that much. know, it’s nice to see people getting what they deserve to work in this industry, you know, rather than $2 and 38 cents an hour. With that, yeah, it’s funny. It hasn’t like raised the quality of service necessarily.

Andrew Roy (54:58.574)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (55:02.998)

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Roy (55:10.094)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (55:14.247)

Mm-hmm. The way we’ve always done it. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (55:25.507)

Mm.

Jeffrey (55:25.878)

which is unfortunate but you know here we are.

Andrew Roy (55:32.568)

Sure, Yeah. I guess it’s like anything else, you know, it’s what you have to do to do it. So you do it. Yeah.

Jeffrey (55:41.366)

Totally. Yeah. mean, cities need to figure something out. I San Francisco is like this where they’re just having such a hard time getting restaurants because people can’t afford to live in San Francisco and work in a restaurant. Right. And so it becomes, is there any value for me as an industry worker to take an hour and a half train into the city?

Andrew Roy (55:55.886)

Mmm.

Jeffrey (56:07.634)

or drive or whatever every single day to work in a, you know, to work back of a house in a kitchen, you know, it’s not. So, so you see, you know, one of the things, one of the, you know, top five things that makes a city great is bars and restaurants. And if you don’t have great bars and restaurants, like your city’s not going to be great. you know, cities need to figure that out, like how to make housing affordable, how to make,

Andrew Roy (56:15.299)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (56:37.364)

get people earning a living wage. Otherwise it’s just like, it’s just a collection of buildings. You just can’t have a great city without great bars and restaurants. It’s not possible.

Andrew Roy (56:52.878)

Yeah. Where are you gonna eat? Yeah. Honestly, yeah. No.

Jeffrey (56:57.002)

Yeah, I was just in London. I was like, I love this town. And I was like, why do I love this town? I love this town because there’s great bars and restaurants here. That is one of the most important things, I think, for a city.

Andrew Roy (57:04.334)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (57:08.814)

Yeah. No, and you know, I think we’re quick to, you know, no shame on my manager, quick to blame the things that are outside of your control, but a surprising number of restaurants do fail. so a surprising number do succeed even with the hardships and difficulties. So a lot of times it’s often just the roll of the dice too. And you picked a location that was on a wrong spot and it just didn’t work out. yeah.

Jeffrey (57:31.958)

Sometimes it’s a roll of the dice. Yeah, I mean you gotta be good at what you do and you gotta be smart and you gotta detach yourself from your personal feelings and make it all about the place. But sometimes you just get a bad hand. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. It’s a bummer.

Andrew Roy (57:35.534)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (57:39.886)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Roy (57:52.654)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Roy (57:57.442)

Yeah, and I mean, if he kept going, I mean, he moved back before COVID. So there’s a chance that he’d got it working and then it shut down a year later. wild things happen. Yeah. What, Jeffrey, the people listening today, where should they follow you? What are you doing that’s new? What’s exciting you? Yeah.

Jeffrey (58:06.942)

Yep. Wild things happen. Yeah.

Jeffrey (58:19.463)

I put all of the things that I do and find exciting on my Instagram account at Jeff Morgan, M-O-R-G-E-N. I share all my stuff there, and from there you can get links to my website. The things that I’ve been most excited about for the past couple years have been these web app calculators that I’ve been making. I’ve got one called Batch Calc that’s for batching cocktails.

Andrew Roy (58:43.726)

Yeah.

Jeffrey (58:49.302)

I’ve got one called syrup calc for making perfect one to one or two to one syrups out of literally anything And I collaborated with the guys who wrote the book bubbles from Crossroads bar in London Who are the experts in? Carbonated cocktails and draft cocktails we did a it’s called carbonation calc calm and it’s just a quick calculator You can use it. You can use them all in your phone

Andrew Roy (59:13.742)

awesome.

Jeffrey (59:17.654)

You can even save them to the home screen so it works like an app on your phone and they just help you get things dialed in very quickly at your bar. So it’s like if you want to have a carbonated cocktail that has a texture similar to German Pilsner, punch in the numbers and it’ll tell you how high to carbonate that cocktail and give you all the instructions. So it’s pretty cool. It’s really fun.

Andrew Roy (59:40.226)

That’s cool.

All free? How about that? All right. Jeffrey Morgenthaler, everyone. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. I’ll probably cut it off around here. So this will come out.

Jeffrey (59:45.142)

All free.

Yep. You know me. Thanks, Andrew. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Jeffrey (59:59.67)

All right. My thing says it’s 99 % uploading.

Andrew Roy (01:00:05.15)

Yeah, I mean it is fast. I tell people that just for that one time that I I don’t tell someone and they leave right away. This should come out July 3rd. Yeah, July 3rd. So right before. I will. I’ll let you know whether or not I can get them to stop doing the upcharge. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. No.

Jeffrey (01:00:11.601)

Right, right.

Jeffrey (01:00:16.96)

Cool. Send me an email with a link.

Jeffrey (01:00:25.502)

Ooh, yeah, that’s so wild. It’s such a strange thing to me, but you know.

Andrew Roy (01:00:32.128)

Yeah, it’s, there’s a real value in talking to people outside the market, talking to people that you don’t work with. You hear these things and you revisit these ideas and like, okay, maybe this doesn’t make sense. You know, maybe it is worth revisiting. So I’m always happy to learn from someone who’s, you know, smarter than me. So I think it’s a reasonable argument to throw out there. But yeah, yeah, I’ve got to go and I’ve got to get the order in, but.

Jeffrey (01:00:45.59)

You’re right. Totally.

Jeffrey (01:00:53.215)

Yeah.

Andrew Roy (01:01:01.921)

It was a real pleasure, so thank you.

Jeffrey (01:01:03.83)

It was was mine. Thanks so much for thinking of me, Can’t wait to hear it. Have I uploaded? Is it all good or should I leave it? It still says 99%.

Andrew Roy (01:01:06.166)

Of course. Bye.

Andrew Roy (01:01:11.846)

here. Yeah, when I leave, it’ll say it’ll be done. So I’m leaving now. Have a good one.

Jeffrey (01:01:16.327)

okay. Cool. Okay, man. Thanks. Talk to you later.