Link to episode HERE.

You’re not burned out. You’re disconnected.

This episode cuts through the noise of trendy “mindfulness hacks” and dives deep into something far more useful: how to actually wake up in your life, your job, and your head.

Dr. Shalini Bahl is a former marketing professor with a PhD, a top-tier publication record, and the courage to walk away from it all. What made her trade career accolades for meditation cushions? It wasn’t a TED Talk or a productivity book. It was pain, disillusionment, and a shamanic journey that rewired her identity from the inside out.

But this isn’t just a self-help story. It’s a roadmap.

We unpack:

• Why most people are living on autopilot (and how to stop)
• The real cost of ignoring your emotions—and how to build a daily practice that doesn’t feel like fluff
• How to deal with your inner critic, even when it sounds like your mom, your boss, or your high school rival
• How to bring presence into high-pressure environments (yes, even a 200-cover steakhouse)
• The science behind ego depletion and why willpower isn’t your problem
• What to do when you feel shame about the work you do (and why your job doesn’t define your worth)

If you’ve ever felt stuck—like you’re performing your life instead of living it—this conversation is your invitation to stop outsourcing your peace.

You don’t need to go to Costa Rica or get a certification. You just need to pay attention.

Link to her website ⁠HERE⁠.

Service starts now.

I talk to people in and around the service industry space, and people that I wish I could have heard from when I was coming up in restaurants. Altogether I am trying to make sense of this wild, beautiful mess of a life, and help others that are feeling similarly confused and/or lost. You can find more of my work at⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠my blog⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and all my social links are at the bottom of that page.

Classic Episodes You May Like:

-#3:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠My 1st and Most Powerful Conversation with Shane Alexander⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-#10:⁠⁠Nat Harry, cocktail expert!⁠⁠

As always, I’m just here taking notes, trying to figure out what it all means.

Cheers

 All right. And then Shalini, right? I just want to make sure I’m saying it right. Okay. I mean, the absolute right way is Shalini. Shalini. Okay. Yeah. So like shall we dance? Kind of that kind of flow. Shalini. Yeah. Shalini. Well, Shalini, thank you for joining us today. I wanted to jump right into it and say, you know, I love what you do. I did have a question, how does someone who’s in marketing get into mindfulness? Because I thought that was super interesting. Yes. And I actually also teach, I’m going to go backwards. So I teach mindful marketing. So I don’t completely ditch marketing and I still do research on mindfulness in marketing. And for many people, that’s kind of like an oxymoron. Like, what does it mean for a marketer to be mindful? Because marketing is all about getting people to buy more and get addicted to their products. And it does at the worst. At the good end, marketing is about helping people meet their needs in a way that’s going to benefit the company. It’s going to benefit the employees. It’s going to benefit the environment. So that’s the end that I focus on in marketing is how can we, instead of working on same old ways of doing things, how can we be present to our values, to what our passions are, our interests are, just like you, Andrew, you are working in a restaurant, but you also have a podcast. And so it’s about connecting with what makes you come alive as a marketer. And then from that place of passion and interest, showing up to work for your clients, for your company and so forth. So I teach that now with the focus being on mindfulness and how I got into it was I was on a track to be a PhD in mindfulness, sorry, in marketing, not in mindfulness, in marketing. I was very interested. Yeah. No, no, no. I started off as a regular PhD student in marketing, but very early on in my journey, I had started some contemplation because of personal reasons. I had been through several divorces. I’m from India originally. I left my country to start afresh with my young son. So there was a lot of personal issues that I was dealing with. And so I landed into mindfulness for my personal journey. And then there was a big breakthrough I had through a shamanic journey, which I’m not going to get into. We can do another whole episode on that. And that was in Costa Rica, but that basically just cut through many layers of my belief system, conditioning, who I thought I was. I grew up in Kuwait with a lot of brands and trying to be something, do something based on what people had told me I should be. That’s what success looks like. But in that shamanic journey, I sort of got to see the dark side and go into the tunnel, really the darkness. And at the end of the tunnel, through that very uncomfortable journey of seeing the dark sides and all of that fear and everything when I surrendered, I got in touch with something that was much deeper, more silent still than my chatty mind, telling me, you’re not good enough for do this, do that. So that was my big breakthrough that happened and that really changed the trajectory of my marketing PhD. I didn’t give up on PhD, but I was going in doing stuff like regular marketing topics, so privacy and technology, but I shifted to marketing from consumer behavior, looking at self-awareness, how do consumers make decisions in the marketplace? How can we enhance consumer well-being? So that got me moving in that direction and then life slowly kept pushing me. I had a regular, I graduated, got published my dissertation, got published in a top journal and all of those things were falling in place. But I somehow kept life kept pushing me into, no, no, no, there are enough marketers out there teaching marketing what the world really needs is mindfulness. And so at some point I had the crossroads and whether I want to pursue a marketing academic career full-time or do I want to go into mindfulness and I chose mindfulness. And so I got my certifications at the UMass Medical School in mindfulness and I kept, I wasn’t a full-time academic anymore, but I kept pursuing research because I wanted to introduce this idea of we can do marketing in a way that’s different and not just based on selling more, getting people addicted. And yeah, so that was. For sure. Yeah. No, I saw when I was doing some research on you, I think you, let me see, I want to get this right. That was going from mindfulness versus mindless consumption. I thought that was beautiful. I thought that was a great phrase. Yeah. So I’m going to kind of twist this from my perspective. So I don’t have the opportunity to get a shaman. I work a busy job and I don’t have any aspirations to get certifications like you may have. How could I start living in a more mindful way? That’s pretty broad, but. Yeah, no, no, no. Let’s just start in the many entry points to that. And my focus is really now on how can people in their everyday lives, with their busy lives, return to that place within them that is present, that is connected with themselves first, with your gifts, with your passions, interests, and and stay connected with that place of awareness throughout our days. So it starts with an intention and the so intention of how do you want to show up? Now, when I teach mindful marketing, I get students to first write down their personal statement of what there’s a process I do with them. And but the basic idea is to make time. How much time do we ever take to sit down and see what is really important to me in my life? You know, as opposed to what you’ve been told over social media, your education, your culture, your friends, your parents, expectations that you have. And many of them may be what you value. That’s OK. But often I found, at least in my own life and having worked with so many people now, is that there are parts of us that we never got to connect with because we never took the time. So starting with an intention of I want to live this one life fully, get the most out of it. So I don’t think of mindfulness as something as just blessing out on the top of a mountain or being completely peaceful. And no, it’s about jumping into all of life with open eyes, wide open, hearts open, minds open, so that we really do start appreciating the gift of this life at this point of time, even though there’s a lot of chaos in the world and maybe not personalized and socially, politically, there’s a lot of unrest. But even in the midst of all this craziness, there is a lot of goodness as well. So how can we tap into that goodness for ourselves first? And then the more we feel connected with that goodness in ourselves, we can start sharing that and creating ripples of goodness around us. So I still haven’t really answered how to do that. I think you’re getting to it. Yeah, I’m getting them. But that was like the broad idea. What do we mean to be mindful? And so starting with an intention, so making time for yourself, like even if it’s five minutes, you know, when you drink coffee in the morning, or maybe a day in the break in between, it takes maybe five minutes to preferably if you have access to nature. I think that’s because nature and trees are all present in the present moment. And so that surrounding allows you to then also be connected and be present. And then you can start journaling or reflecting on what are the things I value in my life. And then it’s a question now, because mindfulness, the way I define it, is our innate ability to see things as they are and to live intentionally, to act on those insights on that clear seeing and on our values, our intentions to live intentionally. So the opposite of that is we’re living mindlessly, which is on autopilot. And there’s enough research showing that up to 95% of your daily decisions are being made on autopilot. So you wake up, close alarm, get your coffee or morning beverage, what you’re going to wear, going to go to work, same people. As soon as you’re in that environment, your same emotions start happening. What you do, who you’re going to talk to, what you’re going to say, hi, how’s it going? All of this is if you really think about it, it’s just happening like a recording. So, and so mindfulness, that’s mindlessly living mindlessly, sleeping through our lives. And the opposite of that is where we keep returning to this capacity in us to be present. So when you go to your workplace, instead of just, hey, hi, how’s it going? You actually connect. Even it doesn’t have to take long. But just that eye contact, just the body posture, just your mind being here with your body, with your breath and the intention with which you’re going to approach your work. So how do you want to show up for your work? You know, and whatever it is, like, so for me, before I start any project or before I go teach, I take a few moments to just connect with my intentions for how I want to show up for the people that I’ll be teaching. So for me, it’s more like, may I be of service to the people who are there? May we all live, not live, maybe all learn together and connect with what is important. So whatever, like now I’m rambling, but whatever it is, but whatever it is, like giving myself some time to connect, because if you don’t do that, we go into autopilot. Often it is based on wanting to impress people, like as a teacher or as a public speaker, I can go into that mode of like, are people really liking what I’m saying? Are they enjoying it? Are they going to buy my book? Are they going to join my, you know? So the motivation is external. And that’s not what really gives us joy is that external outcome. Yes, if I sell more books and classes, I will earn more and I’m able to afford this lifestyle. So I’m not discounting the external benefits. But the other side is when I’m coming from a place of connecting with what do the people need and focusing on the people. So the same thing could translate in a restaurant as opposed to going through the day and just doing what you’re supposed to do. If you really like, we’re focusing on how can I bring joy to every person who comes? People are coming trouble. They have suffering. And so if we can recognize that every person here has some story and some suffering, and how can I make their day just a little bit better? You know, if that is a focus that shifts the way we’re going to pay attention, we’re going to show up versus, oh, it’s another long day, another eight hours of, you know, XYZ. So that’s the one thing I would tell people is make time to set an intention for yourself and before you do anything. And you can keep returning to that intention. So that’s one thing. So yeah, I kind of want to unpack that a little bit because. So I, I have a morning practice where I do just usually five minutes of meditation, but I don’t really do intentions there. It’s more focusing on my breath, which has helped me in ways that I’m not even able to really articulate. But I think that it is something it’s like background presence, maybe, or maybe I’m just like a baby mindful practitioner just beginning my, my progress. But I go into the day to day of life. And so the restaurant I am general manager of, it’s a steakhouse. And so there is a sense you show up to work and you have a hundred guests coming and they’re all going to get a steak. And so there is a way that you can easily just kind of mechanically, like you show up to the guest and is it a full-air or a rib eye? And then we serve on the steak and they smile and they say it’s cooked right. And like, like, I definitely, I feel that, you know, that you called it, I think it was unconscious, but just sort of that, like repetitive nature of life. But there is a sense where my best days are that few days that I actually get to see the guests or like, I see the person behind the just typical interaction that I normally have. And it, yeah, I think, and I’m not saying it well, but I think where I’m trying to go is how do I make that every day? You know, yeah, what are the levers that I can pull to make that even more consistent where I’m more present? But yes. Yeah, no, so thank you for bringing up your morning practice. So I went straight into the intention because that is the piece in the secular world of mindfulness that’s not emphasized enough. Like you said, I don’t know if I set intentions, right? Yeah. The way the original teachings of mindfulness were as a practice. So mindfulness can be our innate capacity to be present. Like right now, hopefully we are connected even through Zoom miles away, but we are present with each other in a non-judging way, where we’re not like caught up in that or rather, judgments will be there automatically. You’re judging me. I agree. Don’t agree. And the listeners will be like, oh, what is she talking about? There will be judgments, but we’re not allowing our judgments to hijack our awareness or presence. So we’re taking it all in. So that is the first step is of being present, of being aware. And that’s an innate capacity we have, but we forget to do, like you said, in the morning, I’m present in my breathing practice. But then when you’re in work, we revert back to our default habits and biases. The invoices have to be paid. Yes, we’ve got to go. Yes. Yeah. And so doing that is fine. There’s repeated work and you don’t want to have to rethink it every time. So we automate it. But what happens is the brain doesn’t just automate what should be automated. It’s automates all of life. You’ll love life, your relationships, your, you know, even the moments where we have opportunities to really connect as humans, to create, to imagine, to do all of these things. We’re automating and creativity doesn’t happen on automation. Love doesn’t happen on automation. So where was I going with this? Was that we have that? So we have awareness, but our default habits get in the way. So which is why we need a practice to strengthen that awareness that gives us choice. Do I want to go on autopilot right now? Yeah, I’m doing accounting. I can do that. I can listen to music and do my accounting. Or this is an important conversation. This client, even though it’s another stake down the, you know, whatever, but this person is a human being who is, has his life and her life. And, you know, this moment could change the day for them. So if you keep that in mind, we can show up with just more connection. You don’t even have to do that much more, but it’s just your energy, just your presence, your eye contact, your voice, that there’ll be more like, people can feel that, that a person is present. Or are they, you know, just kind of going through the motions? Mentally filing their taxes. Yeah, exactly. So now to be that way in the middle to take that practice in the morning that you had the meditation practice or for some of the people, it might be yoga, whatever your practice is, how do we translate that into every day? So, so the practice itself, we need a practice and the secular practice is focused on training the mind towards focus, whether you’re focusing on your breath or your body. It could be mindful walking. So there are many practices built to train the mind to regain control over our awareness. And that is only the first step, though. The second step is once we are aware, what do we do without awareness? So people would come to me, okay, now I’m aware that I am angry. And what do I do now? What do I do with that anger? Well, I’m really frustrated with that client. So I’m really aware I’m breathing and I’m really aware that I’m frustrated with this client and I should be kind. I should be nice. So there are a lot of shoulds that come in. And but what is missing then is once we’re aware, that’s the first step, then we create space for intentions, for insights, for understanding. So that it’s not about shooting, it’s not about I should do this and that, but it’s more like, okay, now that I’m present to my frustration, now I can invite some space for understanding and insight and wisdom. So what is going on for me? Oh, yeah, I’ve had such a tiring day today. Okay, so that’s the case. And you can bring that empathy for yourself before you even think about the client or customer. You’ll be like, okay, you know what? You’ve had such a hard day, go you and you can do some self motivation for yourself. And then you can return to your intention. Why do I do this work or what do I care about in this job that I do? There’s obviously one thing besides the money. Hopefully there’s one thing. And if there’s not even that one thing, then you do need time to figure out what path you should be on. And sometimes we are forced to do things. I don’t want to say that everyone has to love and be passionate about everything they’re doing because at times we’re just stuck in a place. A job can be a job. Yeah. Yeah. And so even in that case, you know, try to find something that you can love within that space. Now that I’m stuck here, let’s say life has brought me here and I don’t see any other option for work. So within what I’m doing, is there something that I can love about that? You know, it could be the food I get to eat afterwards or I don’t know. Tell me like, so what are some of the things that people can love about a restaurant? Working in a restaurant. People love working in the restaurant for a couple reasons. Flexibility is one of the big ones because very few jobs in the modern world. Can you work two shifts a week for a couple of weeks and then six shifts a week to save up for a vacation and go right back to two? So. Right. And then excitement is a big one because you never know what you’re walking into. Every person is different. Right. Yeah. So curiosity can be a big mindfulness skill to develop in your business, which is like curiosity is what disrupts our confirmation bias, which is about just seeing things that we already believe or so it disrupts that and allows us to see everything with a sense of awe and wonder. So you can just even doing that. Like I’m just curious about all the people who are coming in and noticing them. And then when you notice more than you may be able to respond better to their needs, anticipate their needs and be able to do that. And I know there’s like a lot going on there, hundred people like, are we able to do that for every person? What does that mean? But like I said, it’s about the intention. So if you move coming with that intention to see, maybe it’s just something simple as, I don’t know, noticing that. Tell me something. What could be like, I’m trying to think like, okay, so for us, I was in India and one of the best hotel chains there is Oberoi. And it started look, it was started in the, I don’t know, 40s or 50s by a guy. And his philosophy was to anticipate people clients needs and it’s become like the best. It’s like the most costly, like the Ritz Carlton of India kind of and they’re abroad too in other countries. And recently I got to experience that and I was just blown away by their service and how they anticipate and that is their philosophy. But to anticipate, you have to be curious and open. You have to be seeing observing. So anyways, all that to say that it starts with an intention and intention is what connects our morning practice, which is, okay, I’m going to go back. I didn’t complete the practice. So the practice includes training the mind with meditation, yoga or awareness of breathing, even swimming could be running. So the first part of the training of the practice and mindfulness is to train the mind. So you have more agency over where you want your mind to go. The second part, once we feel that our mind is more stabilized and present is to then cultivate understanding about the situation about yourself. And what are your intentions, values? What are the possibilities? And, and then that gives you insight into the situation. And then the third part is acting on that because in the morning, your meditation might be like, oh, I’m going to show up. And but when you go back to work, the default habits that you have developed over 20, 30, 40, 50, 70 years, they come back. Yeah, they’re going to pull you back into that. So in that moment, it’s that intention of returning to your intention, you know, intention to return to your intention and value. Want to show up. So that’s action. So the third part is skillful actions in the world. So throughout the day you are returning, that’s why I call the book return to mindfulness, which is not that you have to go out there and do something special to be mindful. All you have is the intention of returning to yourself, to your values, to your presence again and again. And so you’re aligning your thoughts, your speech and your actions to how you want to show up in the world. Well, I do have a follow up about that, actually. So one of the things that actually strikes me as the hardest and I’m guessing other people probably think this too, emotions. Like you mentioned earlier, you notice you’re frustrated. And so the disconnect for me is, you know, I’ll have that mindful presence, at least I think. And then I get to work and something annoying happens or, you know, a guest is upset about something. And like, I feel like emotions are so sticky that sometimes they grab you and it’s hard to get past that irritation and come back to that intention. Do you have any experience with that or any tips, tricks that you? 100%. Yeah, you’re nodding, so I’m hoping so. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. And I’m just thinking what is the best way. Maybe let me give you an example and then we can dissect that example and see what were the pieces that were missing or what went into it. So when I decided to join town council, which is a political position of going through the election process, and I’m not a political person at all, and I’m an immigrant too from India. So I knew very little next to zero about town politics, but there was a lot of controversy and what done. So people put my name in. I’m like, okay, sure. I meditate. I’m like, okay, maybe I have a chance to bring mindfulness into politics. Already done that with marketing. Now let’s do here. So the first political debate that I went for, I went really prepared. I’m a researcher and I’m like really hard worker. So I did prepare for the questions and whatnot. But when I went there, there were going to be six people running alongside me. And so we’re out there and I could feel my anxiety rising that there are 100 people here who are going to ask us all kinds of questions about politics and what am I going to do? And I have prepared really well, but I was like, so I did my deep breathing. So that’s the first thing we do is because that breathing is known to put a break to the amygdala hijack or basically amygdala is your emotional part of the brain. When it sees a threat to your competence, to your goodness, any kind of threat, it sends basically it acts like a tiger and it sends a brain like, you know, tiger, tiger. So you kind of fight or flights, fight or flight kicks in. And then when that happens, you’re not thinking very clearly because going back to when we were hunter-gatherers, when there was a threat, all we had to do was either run for our lives or we had to fight. And so there’s no thinking like, oh, what should be the strategy here? Or let me figure this out. No, it’s a fight or flight situation. But in the present day, there are no tigers. And but our brain is still sending signals to the rest of the body. The heart is pumping blood to the limbs. We’re breathing faster so that we can fight or flight. And that’s not always helpful. So to disrupt that, the first thing to do when you feel a trigger is to breathe. So just connecting and not thinking, really sensing the breath moving in and out of your body. Then once you’re calmer, that’s what I did not do in that situation. So I was calm and then I’m like, okay, now what does it mean to be mindful? What does it mean to be mindful? This was earlier before I read the book and went in deeper and I was like, okay, I’ve done my breathing. I’m feeling a little better, but it’s still lurking down there. That emotion hasn’t fully gone away. It’s less aggressive, but I’m still not feeling confident and competent in this situation. So I kind of just faked it. So and I did what I could. I was fairly good. People came to know you were really good, but my campaign manager came to me said, you were not yourself. And he was right because I wasn’t. When I’m myself, I am more authentic and people can feel it. But here I was like more, you know, contrived answers and trying to do my best. So the next in meditation, I looked at what happened, what was missing. And I did my breathing. I calm down. I was quiet. I was in control, but what was missing? And it was the second piece. So once we’re calmer, we can look at what is the emotion we’re feeling, labeling it. Okay, there is anxiety or this frustration. Once you label it, rather than jumping to fix it, which is the other habit we have is, okay, what do we do? No, you have to make room to feel the emotion and see what are the thoughts underlying that. So make room without judgment to, okay, what is lying? So when I paid attention to my thoughts, thinking about that anxiety and what was, okay, what was really going on is I had the thought that I have to impress people there. I should know all the answers. How can I be more like Aaron who knows all the answers? I was comparing myself. So there were all these thoughts. Now without looking at these thoughts, they’re there and creating self-doubt, disconnecting me from my intention. And so what was missing in that moment was an understanding of what is that emotion telling me. And the emotion was telling me that you were trying to be somebody else and you need to impress everyone. But, and then once we see that, then I can disrupt it and say, okay, I’m not here to impress. I’m not running politics to win or to impress people. I’m doing this to really show up for people to listen to them. What are their concerns? And then based on my skill set, find solutions for them. So then in the future, I had moved away from my intention. Right? So my intention is to bring mindfulness and politics, but what was I doing there? I was trying to impress people. And so when I see that misalignment, I can come back to that and come back to then. What does that look like is showing up, listening and connecting. And if I don’t know an answer, it’s not the end of the world. I can tell people, I really don’t know. And that’s a great question. Let’s let me go and figure it out and I’ll come back to you. Right? Yeah. Okay. So do you see how that could be translated in your situation when you are frustrated with a client? And so once you breathe and you calm down and then you look at the causes and conditions for the frustration. And it may be different in some situations. It may be you because you were exhausted yourself that day. So you’re bandwidth for dealing with customers called the ego depletion state. That is when we’ve used up our cognitive resources, maybe towards the end of the day or end of your shift when you’re already feeling depleted, even the smallest trigger can make us sort of. It’s like you’re over the line. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. So in that situation of ego depletion, again, because you don’t have the resources to handle, you could see, okay, recognize I am so exhausted. One is coming back to your intention, your love for what you do. That always gives me energy like, okay, I’m here to serve people and if I can help someone in the situation, so be it. Right? So that is my internal motivation and it helps me move through that ego depletion state rather than, oh, I should be because should requires more resources willpower, self-control. This requires more resources that you don’t have over there. Connecting with that inner intention, that inner purpose that you have. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But connecting with who you are, with love, with passion, with interest, with care, that does not take much energy or resources and that’s actually energizing. So you see the difference between self-control willpower like, oh, I need to control my anger. And that’s what we’re all about. You wipe back all your way to mindfulness. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Right. And that doesn’t always work because you’re just suppressing your emotions rather than letting them surface and listening. You know, emotions are my friends. They’re telling me something is off. So you have to befriend your emotions and see what are the thoughts and then you can do something. Once you know what is your deeper source of frustration, then you can respond. So what and at the risk of making this like a therapy session, I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole fully. So I think I’m probably good stand in for a lot of the male listeners out there where, you know, I feel like I am somewhat evolved, but I don’t have the best like emotional vocabulary or connection with my emotions, the ability to speak through them. If you ask my wife, she’d probably say that too. So how do you get better at sort of diving in and, you know, figuring out what those underlying feelings are? Is it just something that takes practice or? That’s a really good question. It does take practice and the more we make time for it, but I would also encourage you to, have you ever taken a class with a teacher? A live mindfulness teacher? Oh, no, no. I was like, I’ve taken many classes. Classes. Yes. Yes. I am educated. Yes. Mindful of class now. Yeah. So I really encourage people. And in fact, I wrote a brief article on substack. So my substack is called Sama Life and Sama is S-A-M-A and Sama means skillful, which is the opposite of mindless or unskillful. And so in that, I wrote why apps and articles and books are not enough to be mindful. And apps and books can help you once you have learned from a live teacher, whether it’s, and now it’s on Zoom. And by the way, I am offering a class online. But we’ll talk about that. Login. Yeah. Just a little plug in. Actually, it’s already started. So it’s not even a plug in, but just to look out for future. And it could be in your own area to see a certified mindfulness teacher because there are so many nuances to understanding what mindfulness is. So many people end up just doing the tip of it, which is also a great thing. Like even if you’re just breathing or going for mindful walking in that, that’s great. You know, it gives you a little bit of stress reduction at least. But if you really want to shift, make the deeper shifts in how you think, how you perceive life, how you are experiencing life and showing up and making those deeper changes in how you think. And the way you think that impacts how you show up and act. Then I would really recommend working with experienced teachers who can help you then go to the deeper level of identifying. And even if you don’t know what the emotion name is, for example, coming back to that, I think it’s more about just recognizing this discomfort in the body and where do I feel it. I’ll give another fun example, which is of running. So I hate running. I hate exercising, basically. I grew up in Kuwait, which was very hot and didn’t. So I didn’t grow up like normal children playing in the playground. It was too hot, like 120 degrees. So all we did was sit at home, watch TV, eat food, and I’m a nerd. So I read and I love to study and do research and continues to be that way. You’re among friends here. Don’t worry. Okay. Okay. So here’s the thing. I’m married to a marathon runner. So I always kind of silently comparing myself because he goes running every Wednesday, come rain, shine, hail, storm, whatever. Right? I’m like, so envious of his kind of commitment and discipline and all of that. And so I tried running, but I hated it and I gave up. So there was a lot of judgment. And at one point I meditated on it with self-compassion. I’m like, okay, what’s really going on with this running thing or any exercise, but let’s take running. And I was able to like look at, oh, I hate running. So I’m like, okay, what do you hate about it? I’m like, oh, it’s so hard and so forth. And when I, so there was that emotion of self-judgment. That’s not an emotion, but it was more about maybe shame or kind of shame. I would say is that I didn’t, I didn’t even go into what the emotion is. All I did was I’m feeling like that I don’t like this. And there was self-judgment around it. Like I’m lazy. That was a label I’d given myself. So then I was unpacking that and just approaching myself with compassion. And so once you breathe and then say, okay, I hate running, noticing the self-doubt, the criticism, the inner critic, you’re lazy, hearing my mom’s voice, hearing all of that. And so when you see all of that and then I’m like, okay, so that’s that understanding space we’re creating. Like what are the causes and conditions? What’s underlying this resistance to movement? And so going to the causes and conditions for my resentment is that is the way I grew up. So there’s a whole brain wiring of my basic foundational years up to college where I just sat. It was a sedentary life. So my brain is wired. And so anytime you try to change it, that’s called status quo bias. Human brains try to resist change. And so if it’s a new habit, new diet, new exercise, new anything, new meditation practice, mindfulness, it’s going to be a little, your brain will resist it in so many different ways. This is new. This doesn’t seem right. Yeah, it’ll create very logical reasons. Like, okay, right now is not the time for mindfulness because you have so much to do. You have responsibilities. The brain will come up with very legit reasons not to do it. So when I looked at it with compassion, I’m like, okay, so if my brain is wired for sedentary now to rewire it, what do I do? I have to take the actions to start moving in small doses with love, without judgment. And so I started running as a mindfulness practice to overcome my resistance to running. And then the first time I ran, I was like, oh, this is so hard. So again, that’s an automatic reaction. But when I look under that in my body, what does hard feel like? Hard is a concept, right? It’s a construct, a label that the mind has given to an experience. Now looking at in the body, what does hard feel like? So that’s mindfulness looking deeper. And I was like, oh, hard is like my heart is pumping. And I’m breathing fast. I’m like, okay, what does hard mean? The heart is pumping. That’s a good thing. It’s getting stronger. That’s the goal actually. That’s the goal actually. So when you look at it really intimately in your body, what is your experience, then it’s like, oh, it’s getting stronger. So okay, I can keep going. And at any point I feel I can’t breathe, I can stop. But right now I can breathe. It’s just faster, right? So through that, I’m like, no judgment one step at a time. And I was able to run a mile, which was like huge for me because earlier I had tried and I would just go 100 yards and I’m like, I’m done. Did we do a mile? I’m like, I’m like, no, that was just like 100 yards or something. So like a very short distance. So in that way, I was able to, by looking at what is happening in my body, what are my intentions? Like I want to be stronger. I want to have more vitality. That was my motivation. And that allowed me to then go through the discomfort. And it wasn’t easy for a very long time. So that’s the other key lesson is discomfort is a guide. Discomfort is your guide. It’s not a bad thing. Our automatic reaction to discomfort is you want to avoid it. Oh, it’s so hard. It’s not for me. All right. Mindfulness. It’s so hard. It’s not for me. And all these things that are good for us, not all, it’s many things that are good for us can be hard. And we don’t do them. Yeah. The hard things are the things you’re supposed to do almost. Almost. Yeah. Almost. Not all of them. I do like that caveat that you added. Not all of them. Yeah. Not all because yeah, there’s some fun things like eating good food. You know, that’s not hard. I love that. I can do that anytime. Well, it depends on how much and when. But yes. And again, talking about eating, right? I think appreciative joys. So I’ve broken our mindfulness into these eight skills because that helps us be mindful in the real world. So appreciative joy for me comes a lot, especially with eating and restaurants. And basically it’s the idea of delighting in what is good right now. So rather than, oh, when I have XYZ, then I’ll be happy and all. This is about finding the joy in us already. So today morning, for example, I had my, I made my cup of coffee and normally I just drink, I love coffee. I can just keep drinking it. But today I was like, okay, stop, no phone, nothing. And I was listening to the music. I’m looking out into the green trees. It’s raining and it’s springtime and it’s just like so, so enlightening and really smelling, tasting the coffee, closing my eyes. And that creates that joy or rather allows us to touch into that joy that is already available to us. So the same way, I think, I don’t know how you can recreate or invite maybe customers or clients, whatever you call them to really appreciate, because often when we’re eating, well, it’s also social activities. So people are going to be talking and all, but when they’re talking, they’re not really necessarily tasting it. I don’t know if your steaks are really good. Do you want people to talk? They are very good. Oh, yes. You want them just taste it, right? Okay. So in that case, I don’t know what can be done. To maybe help people reconnect with that appreciative joy of the food that they’re eating. And I need to think about that. How about you? Well, I think, you know, especially in America, I’m sure most of the western world, eating is such a thing. It’s not the event itself, but it means to an end. Yeah. Where, you know, it also has all these added on additional baggage, you know, people feel like they’re eating too much. They have judgments. They don’t have time to make good food and going to McDonald’s. They feel bad about that too. So there’s this constant like stream of you eat to live, but it’s the package. Yeah. So many judgments. Taking the time to sit down with a loved one over an anniversary and actually enjoy, you know, three course meal is a thing. But there’s that judgment in the background too. So. Oh, as you were talking, I was my brain was multitasking. I was listening, but there was a part of me that was like coming up with what a ways to invite people because like you said, there’s so much of judgment and people are just doing it on like the eating. And I encourage anyone who’s watching this. The next thing you eat just the first three bites at least if you just close your eyes and give your full attention. We do that a reason, eating mindful reason, eating exercise and it really changes the experience so much. It the reason, simple reason suddenly becomes so much juicier and there’s so much more taste and texture. Otherwise it’s like a boring reason, but when you actually pay attention to it, it’s so fulfilling. And that’s the metaphor I also use for life that life becomes so much juicier and delicious when we live with our attention and care rather than just like, you know, walking, sleep walking through life. So I really invite people to do that. But what I was thinking is how maybe let’s brainstorm a little bit and I want you to I’m just going to put some seeds for maybe you can put a little sign on the table or something. Thank you for being here, choosing to be here. And we hope that you take, you know, the first five minutes. This is I’m just blabbering, but there must be a small weight or a beautiful way to put a little card on the table for people to reminding them that thank you for the taking time to be here and and invite you to really taste the and so what I was unique about your place. I am vegetative. I can’t offer much perspective on that. But if it’s like, you know, grass fed or if it’s whatever, whatever, whatever is unique about your place, if you can invite people to like be invited to take the first bite with your full love and intention or something attention to that first bite. And so it might even create something for people to talk and remove the judgments, leave the judgments out of the door. And we, you know, really enjoy and we’re happy to pack away whatever, you know, you know, so people don’t feel like they have to eat everything. I don’t know. So I’m just brainstorming with you, but you could even maybe chat J.P. Did I use Claude a lot for brainstorming these ideas? Like I have an insight and I have an idea. Then I’ll be like, okay, what are some cool messages we can put on a restaurant table that will be inviting not just an ad to a restaurant table. That will be inviting not judge, don’t add to their judgment already. If they don’t do it. So it has to be fun. It has to be inviting non-judging way to get people to really experience a joy of what you have to offer here. Sure. And, you know, I wouldn’t really put anything on the table, but I’m thinking, train the server to say and I was even thinking like, because wine is such a big thing with the meal. So it’s like really, really just take a sip and take your first bite. Just trust me, pay attention to how well they go together. Oh, yes, training even though yes, the servers. I was thinking of that too, the servers and they could be then some philosophy on their website. So it’s all integrating it. So it’s not like an isolated one thing, but if you could create a whole philosophy around appreciative joy is one. I mean, to me, that feels so important around food. We have so much like you said, so much judgment and we eat on default. Like we don’t even taste half the food or 90% of the food we don’t taste. Like, yeah, I just drink my coffee because I like it and it’s better than eating chocolate. You want a little caffeine. Yeah. No, actually, caffeine doesn’t, doesn’t energize me. I have some gene that I can drink coffee and go to sleep right after that. I didn’t do it. I know. I don’t know what’s going on, but it does. I just do it for the taste and it’s warm and nice. So not very helpful. No, you know, you mentioned that with food and it did. I wanted to ask you earlier when you’re talking self compassion. That that seems like such a big unlock. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I’ve struggled with. I’m sure lots of people have struggled with. There’s a voice in your head that’s really mean to you. It’s almost like a taskmaster telling you to like work harder, do more. I’ve done enough today. How do you, how do you get into that self compassion? Where does that come from? Oh my God. Such a good question. Thank you for asking. Most of us have the inner critic, no matter how successful I worked with Fortune 500 CEOs, executives, nine generation business owners. I mean, you look at them like, oh, they’re so confident and they must be like perfect. And oh, no, every single one has an inner critic that’s telling them you could do it. You could be better somehow. Right. So self again, when we don’t pay attention to that voice, it’s below the radar and it’s making us feel certain way. We end up acting on how we feel. We show up maybe smaller disconnected and then people feel that vibe and they respond to you, which becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy. And you don’t get noticed. You don’t get hurt. You’re not seen because you are showing up that way because you’ve been working on it. You’re not seen because you are showing up that way because you believe that voice, you’re just acting on it. So self compassion is the practice of turning our attention inwards towards our thoughts, our body, emotions, our body sensations, our bodies, our emotions with love and understanding. And there are many ways to do that. Some people find it so hard. So we invite them then, okay, think of a person who loves you unconditionally. Your grandmother could be a niece, nephew, right? And so from their perspective, see yourself. Like if they’re talking to you, let’s say I’m struggling with my body issues. It could be like, what is your grandmother saying to you about your body? And or, you know, there’s a way to go into that, not just directly. You first start with something simple and we can also practice compassion first, evoking that by thinking of someone you love unconditionally. It could be a child, a partner. So really feeling that love and that connection and sending out loving kindness wishes. So it’s a practice with training the brain to rewire for kindness. So we can do loving kindness. Like you go to the gym and you do this exercises, the exercise you do for compassion building could be sending loving kindness like to my son that naturally evokes for me that place of love that I have in compassion. Naturally, we have that innate capacity to be empathetic compassion. So I’ll be like, Oh, may you be happy. May you be, may you be healthy. May you live with ease. You find joy. So whatever’s coming naturally sending those loving kindness wishes. Now we are created the right conditions where I’m feeling that compassion. And now I can turn that towards myself from now that I’m connected. May I be happy. May I be healthy. May I be safe. So just doing that and initially people may not feel anything and may feel like mechanical, but that’s why we want to do it with someone you really feel and then turn it towards. So that’s one of the practices. And then as we continue to do this, I have actually the book has six different practices to build compassion. And I created an app which is on to go along with the book. So the it’s on Decable. Decable is the app and my there are 48 mindfulness micro practices. And so there are six of them for compassion. So one of them is I see me. And I love that one because it’s just about taking time in your day you could be going for a walk and you’re like I see me. So it’s an often we are waiting for others like our parents to see us to acknowledge the good we’ve done people we love to tell us. But underlying all of that is basically we want our own acceptance. Yeah, I think that’s powerful. Right. And so for once we are able to love ourselves and making that time to I see me is like, I find it so powerful because I grew up in a collective is culture. Most of our attention is pleasing other people and I think I see that in the West also we have a pleasing like we want to be seen as good people. So focuses on others and this is about no I see me with all my goodness with all my values with all my shadow sides. I see my inner critic. So even your inner critic you befriend rather than fighting it and defeating it. It’s more like, oh, I see you you’re here because the inner critic is trying to also defend you and say, hey, you know, it’s it’s like your parent who was very bad parent did bad parenting, but the intentions were good. They messed you up probably. So I think I’m a coupler parent that actually just apologies to be safe wanted to find a secure job and a good life. Yeah, exactly. So the scene where we can be compassionate towards the inner critic and say, Hey, I see you I see what you’re doing here. Let’s talk about it a little bit if it’s like, Oh, you’re not going to this blah, blah, blah. I’m like, Yeah, let’s talk about that a little bit. You know, last time I remember I wrote that book. I was like, Oh, you know, I’m not going to be at a PhD at publishing top journals and yet that inner critic was like, Oh, you suck. You could be doing better. You have only so many followers. Look at the other person to help you know. So it’s like creates all those kind of pressures. But when you don’t look at the inner critic, it has power over you. But when you turn towards it with that compassion and love, and okay, let’s talk. And then you can change that. And when you change your mindset, your perspective, perception about yourself, you’re going to show up differently and people are going to respond to you differently. Yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah, I’m very much. I like to go into the tactics of how to do it because I feel like a lot of my life is just being very confused on like, I don’t I don’t know what that means. So, you know, like what do I do tomorrow? I wanted I wanted to really touch on the self compassion. I think there is a large presence in restaurants and bars, kind of a sense that the job is a little lower skilled. And I think a lot of people even if they wouldn’t admit to it feel ashamed of working in that industry. Because it is often either people who’ve done it their whole life, or younger people who are doing it to fill in a gap before they go get their, what their real career after it. A lot of people I talked to you’re just like, I didn’t think I’d be a server for the last 10 years. And so I think, like having that, like, how do you develop that compassion and understanding in this industry where you might actually agree with that voice. That’s even its own special hell. Right. And I think the appreciative joys like it disrupts a negativity bias. So negativity bias is where we look at all the negatives in a situation rather than looking at the positives. So appreciative joys of practice, the gratitude practice is about, you know, recognizing, like I said, three, we talked about it briefly earlier, but the practice would look like, okay. So one is I’m a server and do I, you know, is there a choice or do I want something and might be like, okay, I’m just going to do this for 10 years, okay, or five years or three years, whatever. So once you figured out I’m not because we don’t want to do something called spiritual bypassing, which is where we ignore our emotions and I experience using mindfulness or spiritual language. So like, oh, everything is okay. I’m so lucky to have this job and everyone is out there hungry and so we’re using intellectual thinking to bypass and specify that inner critic. Right. And that’s not what mindfulness is. So you want to actually be very intimately connected with yourself and that’s mindfulness that awareness you’re bringing that non judging awareness to how you’re actually feeling. And so looking at, okay, I’m a little ashamed of this job that I’m doing. So really looking at what that’s bringing up feeling making room to feel it in the body and not try to fix it. As soon as we feel it, we want to fix it. No. Oh, that is, that is my number one trait. Yes. Oh, yeah. And many of us are problem solvers anyway, which is a good trait to have you’re like, okay, let’s not worry about let’s get into what can we do mode. So but in mindfulness, you want to take a little bit of time to create space to really see not just surface level what’s the judgment but what’s below that. And it might be actually I really enjoyed it’s what my parents think of me. That’s bothering me. I love. Yes. Yeah, that’s good. I love. Yeah. So I love the flexibility. I love being with people. I love food. I love being around food. And so whatever it is you’re doing. So it’s about going what’s below it to see where is that judgment coming from? What are the cause and conditions for that? And then and then looking at what are the things I love about it? So being very objective. Oh, I do love that actually about it. I love the flexibility and I love and even though I’m going to be doing this because I want to pursue a career after that or do something else, you know, so that’s fine. But in this moment as you show up to work, how can you be fully confident in your choice because you made it. It’s your life and you’re choosing to be in this place of work and you can do it with love with joy for what the things the eight things you love about it and the two things you don’t. That’s fine. You can acknowledge that or you can show up like hating it and resisting and shame and guilt and all of that. So it’s a choice. Yeah. That’s powerful too. I, you know, I think from here on out, I’m going to try and remember that inner critic voice may not always be unified voice, but I like that idea. It’s a little bit of you. It’s a little bit of your parents, probably maybe a little grandmas in there and like maybe your friend from high school and yeah. Right. Right. Who are on Wall Street maybe and earning way more. A book you read once and all that wrapped into one. Yes. Yes. And so appreciative joy can be a practice. Again, it’s a habit. You want to live your life with the negativity bias only focusing on what’s wrong or you can make it a practice. So even those friends who landed those amazing jobs and there’s a little bit of envy there. And you know, like when I was writing my book, it took me five or six years to write it. And meanwhile, there were people way less experienced than me in my mind. And I was like, and they were like, Oh, best seller and I would read it on Facebook. I’m like, you know, that thing would happen early. And I’m like, and then I would be judging myself. Why shouldn’t be jealous because I’m mindful. And so there is that, but it happens that reaction happened that we compare and then I’ll be either like, Oh, they don’t even deserve it. You know, like how did she get it? There’s no voice that’s going. And so mindfulness would be to pay attention to that voice and see if I just let it go, then I would just maybe give a like or love even and say, Hey, congratulations. But it’s like a fake one. I didn’t really feel it. So instead, what this was actually happened was where I paused to tune into that feeling of jealousy and envy. And there’s a difference between the two. We don’t want to get into that. But anyway, I felt that. And then I’m like, okay, let me just make a little more space for what’s happening. And then it was more like when you, I don’t remember the exact process that led me there, but it was more about paying attention to that rather than pushing it aside and saying I shouldn’t be jealous. It was more confronting my own jealousy, looking at it. And then the thoughts related to that jealousy were like, Oh, she doesn’t even deserve it. She’s not even that good. I’m like, how do I know that? I don’t know that person’s life journey. I barely know her on Facebook. And so, yeah, you know, if she’s written a book and she’s reached here, clearly she’s put in effort and work and dedication and love and all of that. So I don’t know what her journey is. So I can I just respect her journey and honor her journey for getting her to write a book. And, and then what can I learn if she could do it? What can I learn from her so you can use that moment to motivate yourself? Oh, if she can do it. Yeah, I want to do it too. So that right understanding about the person’s journey and not my assumptions. That’s curiosity skill, which is confirmation bias. We only see things that confirm what we believe. So I could just look at her. She’s so well off. She doesn’t even deserve. She just used her money. You know, like I have my own rant around it, my own judgments and stories. And, and I can disrupt that storyline and bring curiosity. But do I really know what is her journey as a human being? And then some point I read about this person who had lost her brother and like, Oh my God, you know, like this person has gone through a lot of tragedy and suffering and here I was sitting there. Oh, what? You know, how dare she? Yeah, exactly. I’m clearly better than her. So but when so that’s that habit of first breathing and that’s the second piece of cultivating insight cultivating understanding of what is really going on below the surface of what we’re seeing. Yeah, it’s another. It’s another version of you saying I see you to that part. Yes. Yes, I love it that you caught on because actually so I see me is one card and the other opposite is I see you when you just said that. I love it. Yeah, so the other card is which goes so first we want to see ourselves what are we feeling our needs but then the other card that helps is I see you as a human being. And not just my judgments of you based on three things I noticed about you but really knowing that shared humanity we have as human beings we’re all doing the best that we can. Wow, I think honestly that’s a great place to leave it. You know, I could talk to you for all day I feel like but like at the beginning we said we only had about an hour so I don’t want to hold up too much of your time. Before I let you go where should the listener follow you where can they find you. Do you have a preferred website or how do you like people to find you. So right now I have started a sub stack called Samalife and I’m introducing articles, micro practices and things that people can really benefit from the real world practice. And if you want to sign up for my class or interest you can join my mail mailing list on knowyourmind.training. That’s my website. And check out the Deccable app because that’s like a companion a mindful companion in your and they’re like 48 micro practices for appreciative joy we talked about I see me I see you then their appreciative joy practices and that multiply goodness. My body loves me love it back so there are all these different practices there to build these qualities of the mind and that’s on Deccable but all of that is on my website and my book of course return to mindfulness so you can find all of that on my website which is knowyourmind.training. Awesome. Yeah. And those of you who are listening in a car. All those will be in the show notes so don’t don’t worry if you didn’t have a chance to write that down. Yay. Hey thank you for taking a moment to come and talk to us today I really I felt like we learned a lot and I feel like I have grown a little bit too so. Thank you that makes me so happy Andrew and thank you for the work you’re doing and bringing to life your passions and creating this podcast so thank you to you. Absolutely.