Link to Episode HERE.

Picture this: thirty‑year agave plants hauled by burro through Oaxacan dust, corn fields reborn as gold in your glass, and a mango eau‑de‑vie so juicy it will drive you mad. That wild collision of flavor and story is exactly what today’s guest, Nat Harry, lives for. Nat’s a former bartender turned spirits buyer, San Francisco World Spirits Competition judge, and newly minted author helps guide us towards what is truly important in the world of fine spirits.

Expect to learn just how big of a geek I can be over spirits. Expect to hear us geek out on mezcal sustainability (“distilling coral‑reef liquor,” as one master sommelier quipped) , debunk “older is better” whiskey myths, and learn why the word “smooth” drives pros crazy….unless you ask the right follow‑up question.

If you pour for a living or just pour over bottle labels for fun, stick around: this conversation is fun, fiery, and guaranteed to leave your tasting glass (and your notebook) overflowing.

Service starts now.

Links:

–⁠Nat’s Instagram⁠

–⁠Nat’s Website⁠

–⁠Cask⁠

–⁠Omnivore Books⁠

–⁠New York Kitchen and Letters⁠

–⁠Leopold Bros⁠

–⁠Kilchoman scotch⁠

–⁠Rey Campero Mezcal⁠

–⁠Mezcal Vago⁠

–⁠Real Minero⁠

–⁠Rhine Hall (Mango Eau de Vie)⁠

I talk to people in and around the service industry space, trying to make sense of this wild, beautiful mess of a life. You can find more of my work at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠my blog⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and all my social links are at the bottom of that page.

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-#3:⁠⁠My 1st and Most Powerful Conversation with Shane Alexander⁠⁠

As always, I’m just here taking notes, trying to figure out what it all means.

Cheers

 All right, thanks for joining us today, Nat. So I wanted to jump right into it and you’ve got a new book that just came out and very exciting. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So yeah, can you tell us how that come to be? And yeah. Yeah, I had been thinking about this project for a number of years and it kind of started when I was the spirits buyer at Cask in San Francisco and one of the nice things about that job is that I got to get invited on trips from suppliers and importers and get to go and see firsthand how spirits are made and that was just an amazing experience. But I think I was particularly inspired by Oaxaca that was really like ground zero for thinking about agriculture in terms of spirits. So my first trip to Oaxaca, I kind of got a little agave obsessed, but I really started applying this sort of mindset of seeing just the farming and the physical aspects of just moving a raw material and applying those same questions to all spirits, just like, oh, what kind of corn is that and what things are grown in a single season and what things take multiple years to grow. So I really got interested in kind of the very beginnings of how spirits come to be. Yeah. Well, I think Oaxaca and Mascala is the perfect spot for that. It really is. Yeah. It’s such a physical process to just these huge plants that are all harvested and moved by hand and sometimes carted around by burrow and it’s very labor intensive and you can hear about it and talk about it. But until you see it, it really flips a switch in terms of how you can kind of comprehend just the scale of it. But there’s just beyond agave too. There’s so much fascinating stuff that we don’t talk about in terms of spirits because we’re always getting this finished product, this package, this marketing. We don’t really go back much further than that as a typical consumer, I would say. Yeah. That’s true. So I was very impressed. So what led you to lead not with a whiskey or bourbon but with a kerosene? You know, that’s funny. That’s not the first time I’ve gotten that question. And it was kind of a roundabout way of, I don’t know, like we had talked a lot about leading with the big heavy hitters, but we figured people are going to get there eventually, like, they’re going to pick up this book, maybe for the agave, but that doesn’t mean we necessarily have to lead with it. So I can’t remember the exact thinking of how we got with fruit, but the organization ended up just making more sense leading with, I think, one of the most underappreciated spirits categories, which is like U2V, just fruit in its purest form distilled. And I kind of love that it kind of, I was almost like a little bit of a happy accident where it made sense for the book, but it really got people looking at that kind of thing first where I kind of tricked you into getting exciting about fruit spirits, which I think are becoming a little bit, they’re having a little bit of a renaissance, at least in the US. There’s some really cool stuff going on, but yeah, happy accident. No, that’s super cool. So I just, I had to ask that was on my notes. I do, I do want to go back to Moscow because I feel like Moscow is such a cool big topic. Like me, if I’m wrong, most agaves will take like 20, 30, 40 years to reach maturity, right? So it’s some of the wild agaves will take around 30, some up to 40 years. That’s typically for wild stuff and stuff like tempestate, those are like the slow burn agaves, things like espadine, which are being cultivated now for a lot of our like everyday mescalza and margarita pores take around eight, maybe eight years. So there is some wiggle room, but you have like a lot of things like towa and stuff that might take closer to 12 years. So I would say that the average is probably more between like 10 to 15. And the stuff that’s that really like long, long growth cycle stuff is we’re not seeing it so much anymore in part because it’s been over harvested. It’s mostly the wild stuff that was was taking that long. And you’re not seeing as many of those like kind of like the nerdy varieties that, you know, again, like the tempestate and stuff that take 30 years. So there are definitely those out there. But I would say the general average is probably closer to 15 years if you kind of average everything out. But that’s still a really long time. If you think of it in like whiskey years to get a 15 year bourbon, like the price you would pay for that, versus the price you would pay for that this, you know, aged on the plant mescalas, like there’s no, it doesn’t doesn’t make sense, you know. Yeah, yeah, that really talks. Yeah, yeah, I think in I think in my head, because I remembered more than a year, I think I just kind of put it. Oh, it’s all 30 years. And and a lot of I mean, there were more, I think of those older plant expressions coming out at the beginning, like when we had all that wild agave, a lot of it was the older stuff. But now we’re not seeing it because it’s it’s either, you know, regrowing or just not looking. It’s not being thought of as like maybe a sustainable way of running up business, which is what mescalas becoming more of a more of a pure commodity and less of, you know, we we make enough for the community and that’s all we need kind of thing. So yeah, it’s changing. It’s basically changing the landscape of what’s going on. I once heard a master’s song describe it as the is this. I think he said the sustainability of making a distillate from the coral reef. And I thought that that was a funny way of putting it. I really I love that. Yeah, that feels very accurate. Yeah. Yeah. The a little bit before you mentioned aging whiskey for that amount of time. And that it that is something I wanted to touch on because I like I like the approach of, you know, kind of dispelling a few old like kind of rules of thumb that maybe aren’t true. You know, the color being equated to the quality that the older is better. So I just wanted to talk about that a little bit. Yeah, totally. That’s I mean, I think very much those those ideas are still out there like that that a really dark color might mean an old whiskey or, you know, older is better. And I I tasted a lot of single barrels when I was a caskin. I tasted a lot of old like 30 I’ve tasted like 30 year old bourbons. And I’ve tasted seven year old bourbons. And I generally found that I like the younger expressions of like I’ve had amazing like seven and eight year old single barrels that knock the socks off of something that was like 20 years old that starts to get over extracted. And it’s it’s not like a fast rule that like, oh, older is going to be better. But yeah, it’s all all depends on the whiskey and personal preference. But I’ve definitely had some some 20 year bourbon that tasted a lot like like the finest the finest toothpick expression you could get. It’s just very woody and pulpy and this probably didn’t need to happen. But in terms of color, too, with things like Scotch whiskey, where you have sherry barrels that impart a lot of this dark rich color. And you have it next to like an ex bourbon barrel and people will look at the sherry and say, oh, this is older, better, more mature and this light color, like they kind of discount it sometimes. So I think there’s a lot of like not understanding where the color comes from. And then there’s caramel coloring, which is its own discussion. It’s all rabbit hole right there. Yeah. And then you’re like, oh, it’s going to have caramel coloring which is still really big in Europe. As far as like just color, color correction, because it’s sending a message to the consumer that like, hey, you don’t want bottle variation because you don’t want them to be picking bottles based on this one looks, you know, a little darker than the other ones. So yeah, there’s a lot of just like understanding where the color comes from. And, you know, does age make something better? I mean, it certainly changes it. But it’s not necessarily like a value value judgment kind of thing. Yeah. No, I always tell my guests, I run a steakhouse. So, you know, age is kind of like salt and pepper. It’s great on food, but you don’t want to eat salt and pepper. It’s you got to have a little bit something else too. So yeah, yeah, that’s a good analogy. Well, so I wanted to ask you, you’ve done a lot of things. You’ve worn a lot of hats. You’ve got to wear a hat. So I was doing some research on you. You were a bartender by trade. The starch. Yeah. Yeah. Can you kind of give us an overview of your career to where you are now? Oh, totally. I am even before that. So I started out as a in the hospitality service industry as a barista. And I got a little antsy with that. And I started learning about roasting coffee. And then I got a little antsy with that. And when I was working in Ithaca, New York, I was working at this local coffee place in the folks next door had a bar and they used to come in all the time. And I was just like, I wanted to work for them so bad. So I started out as a bar back there and really took to it and started working as a bartender. And then when we moved out to the Bay Area, I started managing a farm to table spot called revival bar and kitchen. And that’s where I really got to kind of flex my creative muscles. Do the cocktail program, make syrup, spitters, all that kind of fun stuff. And I did that for a while. And that was I really enjoyed that creative aspect of that. Definitely rough on the body, which is one of the reasons I sort of made the transition to retail, because I kind of hit the point where both mentally and physically I was like, I need to I need to change before this kind of breaks me down too much. So it did miss the creativity of that. But I got to, you know, I love learning new things and jumping into new areas. So when I switched to retail, that was, you know, still got to use my brain to nerd out about spirits in a way that I didn’t really do when I was on the bar side. Because I was definitely concerned with like using good spirits, but I wasn’t tracing them too far back. I was like, I want a good spirit, but now I’m going to focus on making this, you know, strawberry syrup, these mole bitters in this kind of thing. And really thinking more about the final cocktail than, you know, the production of cognac or something like that. So it was it was fun to be able to just deep dive into spirits and then chat about that with with folks when I was working the floor retail wise. But yeah, I kind of ran the whole the whole gamut of beverage for a while. Yeah. Are you still doing the retail side? I am not. I am. I’m kind of part time working for importer called craft distillers, which is actually cool. And it’s they’ve got some great agave, but I’m not really working retail right now. The book, the book ended up being this all encompassing project where I was like, oh, I have time to do this and that while I’m writing the book. But not so much. No, I did not calculate quite correctly for that. But so yeah, now it’s kind of recalibrating and seeing what’s what’s next. Yeah. What’s the future brings? Yeah, I know, right? It’s a big another big change. I’ve written some articles of kind of like like sort of moving maybe to the writing side. But yeah, it’s it’s nice to be in a place where you have a lot of options, but also it’s kind of a weird place to be to. Yeah, especially to use. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, because you also do spirits judging, correct? I do. Yeah. That is really fun. I got involved in the San Francisco World spirits competition during the pandemic. And super nervous. My first year, I was like, I had that big imposter syndrome, you know, like all these big industry figures, both local and nationally, were there. And, you know, it took me a couple of years. I think to feel really confident. And now it’s like my it’s my favorite time of year. We get to see like some of my favorite people. And it’s just really interesting to get to taste all these different spirits and categories that I might not normally seek out like Baizho and just like a wide variety of liqueurs and things like that. But it’s it’s really fun. Yeah. Yeah. How does one become a taste? You know, I’m sure many people at home are like me where, you know, I like I’m I’m I’m more of the wine side of things. So I’ve gone through the quartermaster Psalms and I’m working on my advance. But even at that level, I am not comfortable. Like I constantly question whether or not I’m a good taster. And I’m sure most people listening to are like, I don’t know. So how do you how did you learn and how did you get into that? Oh, practice repetition. Honestly, just having tasted a lot like I tasted over the course of being a bar manager and like in a retail buyer, there’s just taste like so much tasting. So many like reps coming through, bringing you things. You taste good things. You taste bad things. At some point, you’re going to taste you sort of reach this caliber where I would joke that it cast they they kind of select what things they’re going to bring to you because they you’re not, you know, a big take everything store, you’re going to be more selective. We only have a certain number of spaces. So you get used to tasting a slightly higher caliber of spirits. And then sometimes when you taste things that are not made as well, you’re like, oh, I forgot I forgot that this is a you know, this can happen. I forgot that these flaws can exist. And so just a wide rate of tasting as much as possible is is really the key. It’s not even you don’t even have to have the the vocabulary. It’s it’s more of just the experience and understanding like, oh, hey, you know, this is bitter. This is sweet. This is pleasant. This is not. This is this alcohol content is creating a heat that is unpleasant or maybe it is, you know, it’s balanced. So it’s just I think the matter of like exposure to a variety of spirits and can kind of consistently tasting things. So practice those a lot of spitting. There’s a lot of spitting. Yes, yes. That is something that needs to be repeated. Yeah, yeah, especially with the the spirits competition, like at the end of the day, you you just are absorbing alcohol into your mouth. And it’s it can be an intense intense first couple of times. No, that’s that’s a good point. Because I’ve done different wine tastings that at the end are palate fatiguing. So I can imagine spirits is I’m sure that I mean, 80 proof. Yeah, you’re like, did I have a drink? And I’m like, no, I just absorbed some sort of things in my cheeks today. Yeah. So it really is just pattern recognition, essentially. Just yeah, pattern recognition. I mean, it helps to have things like vocabulary and like, you know, fancy tasting notes, but it really just comes down to yeah. Pattern recognition. True. Is there is there something analogous to the way the wine world has like wine tasting for spirits? You mean like saying these things, you know, lead me to believe this is a chubbly from, you know, yeah, would you ever have a flight where it’s like, I’m pretty sure that this is like mid level cognac and this one is probably yeah, I’m thinking cognac gin and rum. Like those are pretty distinctive. But not not as I can’t think of one that’s like an organized thing. I can think, I mean, I think folks do that on their, you know, own time, like as a sort of a study group kind of thing. But I don’t know. I can’t think of one that exists in a more formal kind of yeah. Although that’s super fun. And I think the lines between like rum and whiskey are more clearly delineated than like a Garnache and you know, like, I feel like there’s more of a divide there that it might be easier, actually. Totally. Totally. Although sometimes they can I have had spirits that really fooled me, especially when you started getting some of these like barrel aged things where you’re like a whiskey agent, a rum cask, and you get you get into some murky areas where those lines pour a little bit. But if you were not trying to trick anyone necessarily and just come on with like a straight bourbon and then like a Scotch whiskey and those sorts of things, those ought to be very delineated. Yeah. Sure. I did have someone once pour me a I think it was a pour of Jack Daniels blind. I think I did get confused on it. I think I said, is this a aged rum? Because there’s that fruity like banana character that instantly I kind of went to like maybe this is I don’t know. And I doubted myself. So yeah. No, it’s it’s true. There are some there are some like overlapping characteristics that that exists with a lot of them. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I got us on a tangent there. I did want to ask too. So your work with the USBG, I was I was wondering, you know, what that role is like and yeah, what the community out there is like. That is a fairly so I’ve been a USBG member since I moved to the Bay Area about 14, 15 years ago, but never really had the time or energy or felt maybe even comfortable being a part of the community until recently. When I first moved out here, there was that it was like the peak of the mustachioed, speakeasy kind of vibe and everyone was like too cool for school. And so I wasn’t like super into finding a lot of community here because it felt very, I don’t know, intimidating and it’s not not my kind of vibe, but a lot has changed. The pandemic has changed things even further. And so I decided to get involved in the USBG and they kind of revived this position that I have that hasn’t they haven’t actually had it for a while, which is the director of education. And I think the former director was Neya White and that was like eight or nine years ago. So so we’re kind of reviving the education program every year. There’s a big national education sort of summit where each local chapter puts together really cool programming for a couple of days or the week. A little in a bigger scale than you might usually do throughout the year. So you have to get guest speakers, you’ll have classes. We just recently started a book club. So we’ll have like authors come in, talk about their book, do a book signing. So we’re just trying to get people kind of interested in some of the educational aspects that maybe some of the younger bartenders don’t know exist for the for the bartender’s guild because it’s a lot of the old guard trying to revive it and getting the young folks interested in it. So basically like rebuilding community, but it’s a cool it’s a cool role because it’s definitely all about learning and bringing folks together through a sort of shared interests and that sort of thing. Yeah, that’s awesome. I’ve always really, really loved the ESPG. They do great events. They they’re a big support for the community. So yeah, yeah, I definitely have enjoyed being involved with those guys. So yeah, like we said before, lots of hats here. It’s so many. Going back to your book, what was your favorite part or like what is the part that really stood out to you that’s like, you know, there’s one thing that I could encourage everyone to go out and buy this book for this part. This is what you really need to dive into. Oh, gosh, that’s a hard question. It could be a couple. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be just one. Um, well, this isn’t quite answering your question, but one of my favorite parts of writing the book was finding out that I was interested in certain things. I didn’t think I would be interested in. So I was a little like everyone in the everyone in this area, like when they come in to the shops and stuff, they want to talk about one of one of two things. American whiskey, particularly bourbon and Japanese whiskey. And so I started to kind of get tired of talking about those things, especially because the level of depth was was pretty much like I want X, Y and Z brand and X, Y and Z age and that sort of the level of intensity that folks were interested in. So my brother told me it was good and that’s what I want. And I wanted to talk about this thing from this cool place. And so I got a little jaded with American whiskey, but when I went down the rabbit hole, I got really interested in corn. So that’s been one of my favorite topics. And I don’t know if everyone will be as passionate about corn as I was. I went like I’ve been collecting corn whiskies and I just I wrote an article for M5 last year about corn after I went to American Distilling Institute has this yearly, I can’t even think of what it’s called, conference. And they had one in Missouri a few years ago and there was a corn whiskey class. And I was like, oh, I have to that the class is calling to me and I went out there and I was like, could not get an earlier about about a subject. So I ended up taking some of that fodder and writing this article. But yeah, I got really into corn. And so that kind of revived my love for like whiskies and American whiskies and that sort of thing, looking at it from a different lens, approaching it from a different way and just like kind of knocking off the dust off of some of those subjects. And I think the second thing I was really kind of I think more people should should maybe read about, especially if they’re into Scotch is molting and barley and that kind of thing. I think that’s really fascinating in the process of, you know, the sort of resurgence of floor molting in the US and, you know, in Scotland. Really interesting, fascinating process and just understanding how it works because there’s a lot of labor that you don’t see there as well. But those are probably my two big things where I was like, I didn’t didn’t expect to be so interested in these things, but I was. And so hopefully that comes through for for the folks reading it, that they will go on that journey with me and also be excited. Corner, molting, yes. For the uninitiated out there, what is molting? So I know me and you know, but. Totally. So. Malting is so we’re using for Scotch and single malt whisky. You’re using barley and barley has to be, doesn’t have to be, but it is typically malted to have these sugars to break down. So the molting is basically your sprouting barley and then you’re stopping the germination before it can come to to an actual plant. So once once it turns into a plant, that energy, those sugars are going to be stolen. So you’re you’re tricking the seed into sprouting. And then you’re you’re shutting off that germination a couple of days later. And then you’re usually roast or toast it. So you get those multi flavors. So when you have like a really dark malt or a malt for beer, for example, like a black beer, you’re toasting or roasting that more like you would like a coffee. So. But yeah, it’s a it’s an interesting process. I definitely think anyone listening. So you definitely made that sound a lot easier than I think. It is. So I would definitely encourage you to look up the process of malting and pictures, especially the floor malting that you mentioned earlier. It’s such a labor intensive process, but. And a lot of it, like the bigger companies, too, is automated now and takes place in these big, like kind of vacuum tube looking things like it’s a huge automated thing. So it’s really cool to have this like hands on like the floor malting is so kind of getting back to the roots of it. And, you know, whether you argue that the flavor is better or not, there’s definitely this connection, which is one of the things that attracted me to Agave spirits is this connection to food and this connection to what we’re putting in our bodies. Yeah, for sure. So I if I remember correctly, I think the Freud does floor malting. I don’t know offhand who in the US does for malting. Is there anyone there is. So there’s two Todd Leopold does floor malting at Leopold’s distillery. He has a small operation and he’s been doing that for a few years. And then we’ve got a floor malter here in Alameda that I think is the biggest in the US. And there’s a place in New York, really small distillery. And I can’t remember the name of them now, but they’re doing some for malting. So there’s a handful, but a small hand. Here and there. Yeah, Leopold is a great producer, actually. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Anyone comes to the restaurant, we have their lime cordial in one of our cocktails, actually. Yeah, I haven’t tried it yet. I went out there and visited a few years ago when I was doing research. And it was so fun to talk to him because he’s just a wealth of information. And yeah, you could just spend days with him and not, you know, we fill notebooks of of info and yeah, super cool. Yeah, his stuff is great. I do not imagine that any person in the world would drink that lime cordial by itself. But in a cocktail, it’s awesome. Absolutely. Yeah. It would be too intense by itself. I couldn’t see it. I did want to talk to, you know, in in doing a little bit of research about you, I came across an article, I think it was 750 when you were talking about the language used in wine terminology. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I just I had to chuckle with your reaction to the word smooth. So I think that you probably think about this word the same way I do. But would you mind kind of talking about that? Yeah, smooth as one of those. Well, that was the whole sort of impetus for the article was you know, we’d be in the the basement at the shop and joking about how folks are like. That’s their favorite. A lot of consumers, it’s like their favorite way to describe something is smooth. And there was a lot of like smooths, not a flavor. And it’s true, it’s not a flavor. But I think what wasn’t getting brought up when we were joking around is that smooth is a texture and textures are very important when tasting anything. And some of the like when you’re talking to someone and you’re using these proper words or these words that you’ve been taught are. I don’t know. The the correct, they’re almost like this correct way, which I think alienates so many folks when you’re kind of being essentially just being a little bit snooty, right, because you’re you’re you’re gatekeeping with your vocabulary. And I could describe something all day to someone. And then I would be like, OK, what I’m trying to say is this was getting smooth and then they’re like, oh, I understand what you’re saying. And so it’s just meeting people where they are. And it’s no one no one’s going to have the level of vocabulary that you’re going to have about something you’re passionate about, no matter what it is. Like if you’re into guitars, you’re going to start rattling off stuff about guitars. And I want to not know what you’re talking about. So just the whole reason we’re doing this is because we are excited about it. We want to teach people and we want to get other people excited. So just use use language or be like, hey, sometimes for instead of saying this word, we like to say this word and and, you know, you can still communicate and teach without, you know, being like, this is the way we do things. And so I I it really originally started as a blog post before I pitched it. And they did take out some of my snarky or jokes. But but I think that like there’s no wrong language to use when when you’re trying to communicate about something like I think you can just try to find the common ground. But I really come back around to smooth as being like, I think it is OK word to use because it is OK. And it’s OK to talk about texture, you know, as long as we recognize what what we’re talking about, too. So, yeah, it’s funny. The problem I have there and this is something that I think is true in the whiskey world, true in the wine world. Teasing out what the guest is trying to say when they say smooth. It’s like when the guest says like they like a fruity red wine. I always have to think, is it that they like wine that is ripe but dry? And they detect that fruit or is it that they like the jammies? Infidels that have a little residual sugar. And that’s how they’re describing the fruity smooth because it’s so ambiguous. Can and low alcohol all the way up to well integrated, you know? And we’re sweet. I usually when I am met with that like smooth and I’m not sure what they’re talking about, I usually just counter with a follow up question. I’m like, Oh, do you mean in terms of this or do you mean in terms of sweetness or in terms of flavor or like so usually I just counter that with a follow up question to kind of flesh out what what they are talking about. And to make sure we’re on the same page that we talking about, you know, you don’t like cast strength bourbon because there’s a lot of heat. So a 40 percent, you know, would be smooth comparatively. Yeah, usually just follow up questions. The same kind you would when someone orders a cocktail, but they’re not really sure what they want. You’re like, Oh, spirit forward or citrusy and refreshing. Like it’s just kind of there’s a dialogue. Yeah. When you say classic, are you talking Mojito or Manhattan? Sort of. Yeah. For sure. I like that. Do you ever miss bartending? I do. I do. I have taken a couple like phil and shifts here and there over the last five years and have definitely, I think felt my felt my age, bartending in your 40s versus bartending in your early 30s. Big difference, but I do I do miss it. I miss just the kind of like I miss chatting with folks and like providing this experience and having a little creativity time too as well. But I don’t think I could ever go back to it full time. But yeah, I do. I do miss it a little bit. Yeah, I feel that. I so I’m just managing now instead of my background, because I was always a bartender. And all I do is I walk around and say hello to people and I’m still tired from yesterday. So I can I can only imagine if I was shaking cocktails for eight hours. Totally like grabbing ice. And yeah, we used to have we used to have stairs in our at the bar revival. There were stairs and we had like a dumb waiter for like heavy stuff and ice. But I would go up and down those stairs like a dozen times, at least a shift to get something that we forgot downstairs or grab a bottle or something like that. And I was like, it was such an intense. It was a very good shape at the time. It was very intense. Have you ever been to Santa Fe Coyote Cafe? I have not. No, it’s where a bartender probably 12 years ago, but they’re outside bar in the summer, there’s stairs and no elevators. So we would when the keg went out on a Friday at seven, we were we were walking up the stairs with it. And I was definitely in a lot better shape than to. Yeah, boy, that’s yeah. I could my back is cramping up. Just thinking about that. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So the only other thing that I did want to make make sure to ask you about. And then I’ll follow up just a couple of questions and let you go. I don’t want to take up too much of your time today. Jeffrey Morgan, Thaler gave you a great shout out. I was wondering about that. Yeah. I I love Jeffrey Morgan, Thaler. I when I was a baby bartender, I used to read his blog and it was just so approachable. And he talked about everything from like, you know, fishing a lime out of the drain at the end of the night and making a really good, you know, a moreito sourd all those sorts of things. Like it was just everything about bar life and it didn’t feel like it was. It felt like it was for everyone. It was just, you know, it was very approachable. And so, yeah, I was I was a big fan. I’m very delighted to get to get his little shout out for sure. And, you know, they say, like, don’t don’t meet your heroes, but he’s such a delightful human being. I am so glad to have met him and known him and I just just chat. And he’s still putting out like everyone’s only like, oh, hey, I made this syrup calculator and he puts it out, you know, for folks to in the industry to use. It’s just like giving to the industry after a lot of years and not being like, it’s so easy to kind of get to get jaded and grumpy. And when you’re when you’re facing person like it’s, I don’t know. So it’s it’s it’s such a refreshing thing to see someone like that, who’s just uplifting the industry, but then to get, you know, a little. Stamp of approval is the right word. But just a little, you know, little just brings a little joy. But yeah, that was really exciting for me. That was like Pat Pat Pat Pat for myself. Yeah, no, I saw that and I was yeah, I was the same way when I was going and going through bartending, being a bar back, reading his blog. It’s funny you mentioned the Amrota Sour because. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that is one of the classics, right? Just put a little overproof bourbon in there, balances it back out. Like, yeah, so. Yeah, totally. Really, really awesome. So, you know, for someone out there that hasn’t read your book yet, what are some of your spirit recommendations from it that you really like, if you only had a handful to pull out, what are some of the top ones that stand out for you? Oh gosh, in terms of like, like a brand or a particular producer. Sure, sure. Or whatever is top of mind. Totally. I think the first thing that popped into my mind, because we were talking about formal thing is. Kehoman for Scotch, which is the I think they’re still the newest distillery on Isla. They’ve been around about for more than 10 years now. I want to say 14 or 15 years, but those guys make some really good whiskies and they make a every year they have a special release that’s all grown by them on the island. So that is really cool. And then they do for malting for a big portion of their whiskies, and particularly this whiskey they do every year, that’s all grown there and all melted there. So Kehoman is a good one. Oh my gosh. I would say. Is this like having a kid in a candy store? No, yeah, or it’s like, what’s your favorite book? And you’re like, I’ve never read a book in my whole life. I don’t know. We started with Mascow. Is there any big Mascow that we need to take a look at? Or. Oh, yeah, let me actually let me just poke in here. So I. That is you’re right. It’s hard. So Mascow was one where. We had to cut recommendations because I had so many for Tequila and Mascow. Most of the areas I was was pretty much like, OK, 10, 10, you know, five year they don’t make a lot. But Mascow, they were like, OK, you need to whittle this down to. A manageable amount. So a couple. A couple of God, they spirits that I like producer wise. Ray Comparo. Those guys do some really cool stuff. I’ve been out to visit them. Mascow, Vago make they make this. A guy that or this espadine that is. As a third distillation where they add corn, it’s an alote. And they make Mascow and it’s obviously combining my two favorite things with just corn and agave. And that’s really fun. So I love those guys. Oh, yeah, candy store Real Monero. They do clay pot distillation, really fun stuff. A lot of special releases throughout the year. And. Going back to fruit, there’s a there’s a distillery in. Hope I’m remembering this right, Chicago, Ryan Hall, and they do a lot of cool fruit distillates. They’re almost exclusively focusing on Udivi. They kind of, I think, made their mark with this mango Udivi where someone was like, hey, we got these mangoes, they’re going to go bad. Can you use them? And it was such a hit that now they do it every year and they source their own mangoes and everything. And it’s, but they, they do, you know, like a, a Kirsch. They do all kinds of stuff, but then they do some fun stuff. Like, I think they have a pineapple now, but it’s like all fruit spirits. And I think they were doing like a pomeau for a bit, which was cool. But for like, there’s some cool stuff going on for, for like US fruit spirits that I think it was worth seeking out. But yeah, I mean, there’s so much cool stuff, I think, going into like the smallest, just like a small shop and, and looking around and asking questions is a good way to find something new and fun. No, that’s some, that’s some good advice, actually. So anyone listening, all those, I’ll try and go through them and get links so we can have those in the show notes just so everyone didn’t have their pen and paper handy. We’ll have that for you. Yeah, just to kind of wrap it up today. The listener today, where could they go to learn more about you? And where can they go to get the book and all that? All right. So the book is, you can get in it at your favorite local store because it’s through a big distributor. You can, you can have it ordered. So if you have a little local store, you can ask them to order a copy. The easiest way is through the Amazon, which, you know, I don’t, we don’t love right now, but thanks. Spaceos, but yes. If you’re like, hey, I, I, I live out someplace where there’s no, you know, cool little bookstore, whatever, and you need to do that. Like there’s no wrong way to order a book. Locally here, Cask has it and Omnivore Books in San Francisco carries it. There’s a place in New York called, I think it’s New York Kitchen and Letters that’s carrying it right now in New York City. But yeah, if you, if you go into any of your favorite bookshops and just order a copy, they’ll order a copy for you. And also it’s in the, it’s in the number of libraries too. So you could check your local library. I think there’s like 14 libraries. They would demand that your local library picks up this book. You can ask, you can request as well if it’s not there. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Where should they go to find you? Are you online? I am online. You can find me on Instagram, at drinkapop.com. And I also have a website that I need to update more often than I do, but it’s nathairie.com and it also has links to where you can buy the books as well. So if you just go to nathairie.com, there’ll be a book. Where can I get your book? Click. You see. And yeah, I’m not very good at social media these days, but I am mostly on it. I am mostly on Instagram, if I am into social media. I am mostly on Instagram, if I am anywhere. Well, that’s probably good for your mental health and well-being. Yeah. So yeah. And that, it was a pleasure to talk to you today. I thank you for making the time and I think I’m going to have to go get some mescal. Also, well, thanks so much for having me. Of course.