Link to episode HERE.

What if the best wine class you ever took wasn’t about wine at all? What if it was really about friendship, redemption, and whether you can really come back from rock bottom?

This week’s guest is my old friend Brian, someone I studied wine with, worked late nights alongside, and haven’t seen in over a decade. In this episode, we reconnect to trace the wild paths we’ve both taken since Santa Fe: from sommelier certifications and fine dining highs to addiction, collapse, and the quiet work of rebuilding a life.

We talk about what it’s like to fall out of love with the industry, find your way back, and what hospitality really means when you’re not drinking the product anymore.

This one’s raw, funny, honest—and filled with moments I didn’t see coming.

🧠 Expect to Learn:

• How a wine class in Santa Fe kickstarted two careers (and saved one life)
• What addiction in the service industry really looks like—and why it’s more common than you think
• Why some of the best bartenders burn out, and how some make it back
• The real cost of being the “most sought-after” person in town
• How catering gigs and spirituality can help rebuild a life
• Why mentorship matters—and what separates a good bartender from a great one
• How to tell if the party’s still fun… or if the party’s running you
• Why Santa Fe might be one of the best (and most dangerous) places to learn this craft
• Whether you can still love the industry when you’re not drinking

Links:

–⁠Carlos Castaneda⁠

Service starts now.

I talk to people in and around the service industry space, and people that I wish I could have heard from when I was coming up in restaurants. Altogether I am trying to make sense of this wild, beautiful mess of a life, and help others that are feeling similarly confused and/or lost. You can find more of my work at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠my blog⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and all my social links are at the bottom of that page.

Classic Episodes You May Like:

-#3:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠My 1st and Most Powerful Conversation with Shane Alexander⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-#10:⁠Nat Harry, cocktail expert!⁠

As always, I’m just here taking notes, trying to figure out what it all means.

Cheers

Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript is autogenerated, there are always errors.

 All right. This is always the super awkward part. So, Brian, welcome on. I have one big note that I wrote today to start with. I hope that’s okay. Okay. Yeah, man. Fire away. I’m anxious to see where this goes. Awesome. So, I wrote down going through the past and some of the things we’ve lived through. And just wrote, I’m happy that Brian’s happy that I’m happy. So, what does that mean to you? Oh, man, that means so much because actually, I remember that quote vividly now that you mentioned it, but I hadn’t thought of it quite a while. It makes me think of the history that we’ve shared and everything that we’ve gone through, thick and thin, up and down, success, struggles, so on and so forth. But I think I’ve actually, I think what jumps out first and foremost is the enduring friendships that you can make in the industry. Even though you and I haven’t really sat down and chatted for a while, here we are picking up where we left off. Yeah, it makes me think of that. 10 years, right? You know, I see, I remember seeing you guys off to Tulsa. In fact, actually, I was at your yard sale and I still have your Monogram De Laundry bag too that I bought from you. So, ADR is still in my side room here actually holding my own clothes now. So, yeah, yeah. So actually, that’s the last time we saw each other in person. And I think we probably chatted through very social media over the years, but this is the first time I think we’ve had a full conversation in a while. But nonetheless, here we are, like, you know, our friendship has carried through somehow. And so, you know, that quote that you just read makes me think of like, you know, the industry and the people that we meet. And even though, like, actually, a lot of people from Santa Fe, being back here on the East Coast, especially, and also since I quit all social media, I’ve lost touch with a lot of people, but I have a feeling that like the friendship is still there, it’s just dormant. So it makes me think of that. And just like, a lot of good times, like a lot of fun that we had and that we shared, you know, do you, it’s like, that’s the thing that pops up first and foremost when you say that quote. Yeah, a lot of fun, a lot of history there. So much, yeah. Yeah, because I was trying to piece together today. Going back, I know that me and you worked together at El Ferole, I was struggling to remember where we met and where we started working together before that. Like, was it Il Piatto? We worked together at Il Piatto, but I think where we met, and actually, I was trying to piece together before we came on today, actually, I think it was actually Mark’s wine class. That’s right. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So actually, which has ties to Il Piatto because it was Alan and I, Alan Deem and I, who started it. And then we met at Il Piatto initially, I don’t know if you met us there, but then you and one or two other people came in. And then of course, that class essentially became the three of us, you, me and Alan, meeting wherever we could actually find a spot whoever would host us, ended up being a Levoca Taberna for a while, because I worked there for a little bit of a stretch. And then, yeah, whoever would house the three crazy guys wanted to learn wine, that’s where we would meet. And then, yeah, and so that’s where our friendship started. And then working together professionally was Il Piatto, and then of course, El Ferole. And then there was one bar that you worked at, it became Skylight, but the bar that it was before that you worked there. And I worked with you for one lovely evening, I think. And for whatever reason, I didn’t stick on there, whether I think it might have been more of a scheduling thing than anything. But yeah, professionally, Piatto and El Ferole, and then but primarily, and I think that for the longest stretch, the wine studies. Yeah, that’s right. I’m so glad that you remembered that, because I was trying to recreate that in my head. And I was thinking like, you weren’t at El Piatto for that long of a time, and you were at Levoca. So it was the wine study with Mark Johnson. Now, wow, that’s a blast to the past. Me and you went and got our level one together, actually. We did, yeah. Yeah, actually, which was one of the highlights for me of my time in the industry back then, but also I should say now that I’m back in it full time so far was one, just that study that taking the time, having the camaraderie that we had in that class with the three of us, and then eventually Mary Francis came along and Joe came along. And so the class kind of like expanded, it contracted. And but you know, the class like, you know, the camaraderie that we built through studying with you, Alan and I, and then of course, you and I decided to travel from Santa Fe up to Colorado Springs, because that was the closest level one that we could find to us because if they weren’t hosting them in Santa Fe yet. And then but yeah, and then taking that trip up to Colorado Springs at the, I believe it was a Broadmoor hotel, which was a very upscale five star hotel. Naturally, we got a very downscale, maybe three star motel room. Like Motel six or something, if I remember something along those lines. But yeah, and I just remember, you know, everything that we learned about the industry, especially in the wine and spirit realm, but also just like the friendship that we formed through doing that was definitely a lasting memory for me. Yeah, that is crazy. That you know, so much has come downstream of that series of events that is just wild. You know, there’s no me and my current job or me and really my past two jobs without that wine certification. And yeah, it just all started from studying wine in a free class in the afternoons in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Yeah, yeah. And then I think I think actually, in a way, it was that study that kept me interested in the industry long enough, because what I’ve come to realize for me, now having some longevity, but also having gotten out of the industry, but coming back to it to find that, you know, there’s a lot of positivity to the industry. There’s a lot of things that still excite me about it. And one thing that I’ve noticed about having any longevity in the industry is the need for me at the very least, I think it might be true for others, the continue learning and continue growing in the industry. And so that wine class, one, it really broadened my knowledge of the industry, but also of the world too, because when you study wine, you have to study the world at large, everything from agriculture and farming to you’ve got to study weather phenomena and weather patterns, you’ve got to study politics, you’ve got to study economics, you’ve got to study history. So like, whenever anybody would ask me, like, what do you have to know to be to be a sommelier? It’s like, we literally have to know everything. Yes, well, all the important things, but it’s all important. So yeah, exactly. And so in it really, it helped me to realize that continuous education is very important to having longevity in the industry, keeping yourself interested, and also keeping your flame ignited. So that class actually kept me in the industry for a long period of time. And even though I got away from it for a while, now going back, I would say that in a more roundabout way, that class actually helped me get to where I am professionally as well. Now, did you ever go beyond the level one? No, I didn’t. I was, of course, like we, I think our goal was to go to level two together. And I tailed off and a new kept going. And so then I had to circle back around and take level one again, because of course, I think it expires before you can take a level two. And so I ended up taking level one again. I think getting a better score, even though they don’t let us know what we scored. But I ended up going through and passing level one with Zina and Tomas, Irish Tomas, the second time. And so, and again, actually, like, you know, having a lot of forging new bonds with those two, which turned into new friendships. But then even going through level one again, having already passed it, it deepened my knowledge of why and probably stuff that I had forgotten by that point, or maybe new things in the industry, which came along from the time that we passed level one, the first time, the time I took it, the second time. For instance, and actually kind of tied into where I am now, the Finger Lakes in upstate New York has become somewhat of a slightly known wine area. And actually, that’s where I live right now, back in the Finger Lakes, it’s where I grew up. And so it’s kind of cool to see, even if it only been maybe five or six years, like the world of wine can grow that quickly. Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Do you get to go and check out wineries out there? Well, actually, well, and so part of my story in the past several years is actually I’ve quit drinking altogether. So, yeah, and so I is interested in as I am in the wineries. Of course, like, for me, if I if one were to go to a winery, it would be to go and test a product and so on and so forth. So, since you take that out of the equation, there really isn’t too much of a purpose for me to go there. However, now that I’m back in the industry in the capacity that I am, I started working full time for a caterer. Some of the wineries we do events at. So I’ll be going to wineries again, but just not to drink. It’s mostly the host events. So yeah, that’s, that’s cool. That makes sense. Yeah, we don’t go to the bowling alley for the hot dogs. No, we don’t know. You know, it’s like an expression I heard along the way too, is that if you hang out at a barber shop for a long enough time, you’re eventually going to get a haircut. So, yeah. So did you quit drinking just for your health or just to clear things up? Yeah, it was for health. And then also to, you know, something that’s a reality about myself, which I’ve learned along the way was that I actually became fairly addicted to alcohol and was drinking full blown alcohol at a point. And so the ramifications got to be too dire in my case. And so I decided that I couldn’t drink in a healthy manner. As much as I wanted to drink casually and be able to enjoy maybe just a beer or two or a glass of wine with dinner for me. And I’m not alone in this, this that I used, I couldn’t stop at just one. And so, and I couldn’t, I can’t quite explain why it is. I don’t know why I’m different in that regard, but I’m not alone in that. So I’ve learned along the way. And so what I realized that alcohol and I can get along as long as I don’t put it in my body. So, and that’s that’s where I’m at now. Sure. Sure. Yeah. No, that’s awesome. That’s, that’s great to hear. You know, I would be lying if I said every once in a while, I didn’t think, do I enjoy drinking a little too much? I take extended breaks. That’s kind of my way of dealing with it. But there’s always that question, you know, are you throwing the party or is the party kind of in charge? So, yeah, yeah. And for me, of course, like I took extended breaks, took two really long breaks for a while. And I noticed during those breaks that my life got nothing but better. And of course, this isn’t this isn’t a demonized alcohol. But for me, this my consumption of alcohol, it leads to unintended consequences, which are not very pretty. But when I take alcohol out of my life, as I have now, for a few times, my life fits nothing but better. And so, I’m able to meet my, I’m able to meet life in a better, more constructive and in a happier manner, when I don’t drink. And maybe one day, I don’t know, like if something will switch in me, or maybe, you know, body chemistry will change, but where I would be able to drink and maybe have like one or two with dinner and then just leave it at that. But what I know of myself is that at this point right now, at least the last time I picked up a drink, it turned into a fairly long bender. And so, at this point, I just decided to take alcohol out of my life completely, at least consuming it. And I feel perfectly fine. I mean, I don’t feel a need or a want necessarily to drink. I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. In fact, actually, I listened to one of your previous episodes since I was doing a little homework on the show beforehand. You said something to the effect that like, you know, did we front load our alcohol consumption? Oh, shame. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, working. Yeah. And so like, you know, so maybe, like, you know, maybe we’re allotted a certain amount of alcohol in our lives. And then like, you know, working in the industry, we pack it all in at the front. And so now it’s just time to, for me to, you know, step away from consuming alcohol, happily serve it. I mean, I’m happy to still be in the industry and still doing it and still getting a lot of fulfillment from it. But as long as it doesn’t go in, as long as it keeps going out to other people, that’s the relationship I have with booze right now. Sure. Yeah. No, that’s awesome. And, you know, I feel like so much of life is like that too. I currently, I don’t know if I told you where I landed, but I’m the general manager of a steakhouse. And I see these people, they’re like coming every night and they eat heavy. And, you know, I’ve been on a real health kick in the last couple of years. And I’m like, you know, I’ll happily serve the porterhouse and I’ll happily serve all the like mac and cheese. But yeah, I will consume that every once in a while, but I can’t, I couldn’t do it every night. Like I see these people doing it’s, yeah, you have to have some sort of limit. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve noticed that too. And, you know, and I’ve actually started switching up my, my own lifestyle, particularly with my diet, over the past couple of months, I’ve actually started to eat more vegetable heavy, not vegetarian and not vegan, but more vegetable heavy. And also with an eye toward eating more seasonally as well. And so even though after a couple of months, I’m starting to view the world of food and food service a little differently. Like, you know, and so like the food that I’m going to be serving with a caring company, it’s like, I couldn’t eat that every night, you know, like, yeah, the leftovers that we have at the end of the night, you know, it’s like, it’s great to throw in the fridge and have that. But a lot of it’s like, you know, the last time I brought home leftovers, it was pasta, pasta and chicken. So like I can’t have pasta, pasta chicken three meals a day. So I definitely thought I could. And then I figured out that you cannot. Yes. Well, actually, once upon a time, I did do that. And perhaps like, I don’t know if the ramifications of that health wise have caught up to me now. And you know, I’m 49, I turn 50 on my next birthday. So they say another quote I’ve heard is that, you know, the things that you did in your 20s and 30s catch up to you in your 40s, 50s, 60s. So it’s so now I’m seeing that. And yeah, so like, I’m happy to serve the people what they want. But I know that as long as I serve it to them, but also take care of myself and eat the way that I need to for my own health, I’m just better in the industry, but also just better in my life as a whole. Yeah. You know, if I can, I don’t want us to be a, this is the downer, don’t drink, don’t eat fun foods conversation. I did want to kind of trace back with you. So I, in trying to recreate where we met up and where we knew each other, I, I realized that, you know, I know some of the major milestones of your career and what you were doing as far as it related to me. But I kind of lost track of where you ended up after I left Santa Fe. And so I was wondering kind of what happened after that. It was 2018. Like what, what did things look like? Because I know the pandemic came. There was always a big shift in everyone’s life. And yeah, I was wondering if we could kind of look at that. Yeah, for sure. And then, and I hope this doesn’t turn into too much of a downer, but I, one of the things I like about your intro to the show is how you talk about, you know, can you have redemption in the industry? And so now, as I sit here as we’re talking, I’m going through my redemption in the industry. So after you guys left, I was still in really high standing, you know, the way I describe it to some people who I met along the way is, you know, when I was in Santa Fe, I became extremely sought after in the industry. I had working for this restaurant on that I had other restaurants or the bars trying to lure me away to come and work with them. Like I had a really, really good positive standing. You know, for instance, I went to work for Geronimo for a summer, went in as a back reader. That’s, that’s bougie. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when I worked, when I went to work with them, you know, somewhat a little bit intimidated, having done that level of service before that, but made captain within a month. So that’s when I realized that, you know, I think I’ve got the goods to do almost anything in the industry. And so I gained a lot of confidence from that. And then I found, you know, was looking for the right spot, the right fit for me. I don’t know that I ever fully found it on 100%. But nonetheless, no matter where I was, like people came looking for me. And in fact, actually one night at a pop up dinner at a friend’s house, Antonio Gallegos and Alana Morales, I don’t know if you knew them along the way, but they worked for Bush and Charles Dale. And so, okay, I don’t know their names, but I know the restaurant. Okay. Yeah. And so they were running it at that point. And they had been friends of mine, you know, within a circle of friends. And so I knew them fairly well. I worked with Alana at La Boca. So she and I became pretty good buds on the way. And at the dinner party, they just straight up like in the middle of their kitchen said, Hey, like, we want you to come and work with us, because Bush was a very small, small place, like, I think maybe you could see capacity with the interior, 25 people. So small place, small kitchen, very small staff only open five nights a week. And so, so they had the ability to invite people in, I didn’t really take resumes necessarily. So they actually invited the staff that they wanted to work with. And so they chose me and I thought it was a great opportunity. That’s when we were working at Alcor, all together, in fact. And so I ended up wanting to go ahead and get back to the fine dining aspect of it at Boos, but also bartended El Ferole, because those are the two things I liked the most. I like to bartend and I like the fine dining aspect too. So I figured if my career could be, you know, those two aspects that two of the premier spots in Santa Fe, then, you know, I’ve just landed in my perfect, perfect world in the industry. But of course, it didn’t work out with El Ferole. So I ended up at Boos full time. But along the way to Boos, my habits with the industry started to catch up with me. And so my drinking, which is already heavy, actually began to, the party started to run me. I wasn’t running the party, so to speak. And so that started a downward spiral for me, unfortunately, where I wasn’t able to hold on to work because drinking became more important to me than actually showing up and doing the job. And so that led down, led me down a pretty dark path where I became, whereas at one point I was sought after, I became somewhat unemployable in the industry because of course Santa Fe is a small town and everybody knows one another. And so word got around that, you know, Brian, Brian couldn’t keep it together, unfortunately, you know, looking back at it now. I’ve made some peace. I still actually have a lot of amends to make with people from back in the days to, you know, use that terminology. But, you know, I’d like to do that face to face. And so that would require me getting physically back to Santa Fe at some point, but we’ll see if and when that can happen. But that was a, in the industry, that was a dark chapter in my life. And that was definitely a rock bottom experience for me. But, you know, fast forward to today. Now that I’ve taken alcohol out of my life and actually ever gained my wits and also my capability, but also like my hunger and my kind of an insatiable wanton need to move forward in life and to learn about it, here I am extremely sought after in the industry again. And so I met some friends along the way who work in the industry and this is why I was actually working at Retail. And they invited me back. And one thing I said about the industry was that I was retired. But if a catering gig ever came along, I would do that the way I pick and choose when I wanted to work because I don’t know like if you have ever worked full-time catering or know much about that aspect of our industry. You, they’re kind of, yeah, it is. Yeah. And but most catering companies have full-time staff, but also they take part-time staff when they have bigger gigs that they need additional staffing for. So they’ll put out invitations or like they’ll put you on a list. And then they’ll just send out invitations like, hey, we need somebody to work on this day at this time. And it’s just like a one and done ship. And so I did that, done that over the past year. And I found that one that I missed the industry tremendously. I really like, so I like the grind of it. I like what we do for people. I like being able to take the puzzle pieces and putting them all together to make a really high-level event. And of course, like a lot of it is wedding stuff. So like, you know, these are high-dollar events too. Like people are spending thousands and thousands. In fact, actually, the most expensive wedding that I worked last fall, they easily spent 100 grand, if not more. And so to be a part of that and make that all come together, at least I had to be a pair of hands putting it all together. I found that it was a fulfillment that I hadn’t felt in quite a while. So I wanted to have that again. And so since I did a good enough job for that company, they wanted to keep me on. And so they would give me like little spot gigs here and there over the winter, just to kind of keep myself interested. And then a couple months ago, they came to me with a full court press saying, hey, like, you know, going into December, we’d like to have you full time. And at the time, my retail gig was going well enough. I actually, I kind of liked having a 40-hour a week job or guaranteed 40. So that way, like, you know, with our industry, I don’t know if you experience it where you are, but like up here in upstate New York, it’s very similar to Santa Fe, even though like we’re in a, I live in a college town. So like when the students are here, our population doubles. But when they go away, like, you know, we’re just a very, very small city, like you can’t even call us and say that, I don’t think. And so like you have the ebbs and the flows of it. So I wasn’t sure I wanted to have that again. But nonetheless, I taken that step, my last day at the retail job was Friday, so two days ago. So and then I’ll be starting full time for catering, you know, back in the industry full time this coming week. And I’m looking at it with a lot of excitement, you know, I’m, I’m kind of happy to be doing it full time again. For some reason, the industry just makes sense to me. Working retail. Yeah. Yeah, it’s like working retail. It’s like, no matter how hard I worked, I still made the same hourly. And so, but like whatever charm that I developed through serving and bartending, like that didn’t lead to me walking out with tips in my pocket, it was just a paycheck every week. And then I come to realize too that the retail company that I worked for, they were corporation. And so I don’t really work well in corporate environments. I like small, I like independent, I like having the freedom to be myself. And when they say black on black, they don’t hand me a black uniform, I get to wear my own black clothing. So I get to have an individuality. And so these are things that I missed about the industry that now I get to experience again. And so, and again, like these are things that I didn’t realize I missed until I got back into it. But I’m happy to have them back now. And it just, it just feels more of me professionally speaking. Yeah, no, I was surprised to hear that you weren’t in the industry still, because you have such a talent for it, such a knack for getting along with people. You know, I obviously didn’t know what was going on when you were at Bush, I am, but at least with the drinking, but I do remember you there and just how well you did. I still remember you had a party and you were disappointed. I think they got like the premier crew, Burgundy, instead of the grand crew. And it was like, like, that’s a great problem to have, you know? Well, you know, and that’s like, you know, that’s actually, I had even forgotten about that party. And yeah, and that’s, that’s one of the things I realized that I missed about the industry too, is that like, the wonders of the world, like, you know, we serve that to people, you know, they don’t necessarily have to go to Burgundy, France to get premier crew and grand crew, we can serve that to them. At Bush, we, I forget the name of the industry or the organization, but we did a dinner for them once a quarter. And, and then they will come back to me. But one of the dinners that we served for them was Sautern. So we did all the best Sauterns that the world has to offer. And I got to be a part of that, that crew that actually helped them have that dinner. So five star fine dining dinner with the best Sauterns, got to drink Chateau de Chem for the very first time, which was an experience in and of itself. And so, and, you know, these are other things that I think about, like, you know, I didn’t come from the world of fine dining, I grew up in rural upstate New York. And so I grew up eating, you know, meat and potatoes. But then I all of a sudden here I am in this world where the finest aspects of the world in terms of food and drink and beverage and service, like here I am in the middle of it, and also doing extremely well at it. And so it was actually quite a journey to get there. But yeah, and again, like, you know, these are career highlights for me. And I did extremely well at Bush before I started to unravel. But it’s good to know that one, I had that, but also two, that, you know, I can redeem myself, you know, going back to the theme of redemption and get back to that. And so, you know, being new to the catering company, I have a feeling that some doors are going to now open up that maybe weren’t there before working in the retail space. For sure. For sure. How did you end up in Santa Fe? Just a thought piled up in my head. I don’t think I ever asked you that. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, no, actually, I think it’s the part of my life which we never talked about. So I actually, I got to Santa Fe from Colorado. So I moved from upstate New York to Colorado. And of course, what’s the, what’s the greatest, one of the greatest motivations for any young man, a woman. So I moved to Colorado with a woman. And we spent a couple years there. And I was in Boulder, Colorado, having a great time. And actually, that was before I ever set foot in a restaurant professionally. And so, but I, my wonder in my curiosity to the world led me to the world of spirituality and everything that entails. So I had been reading spiritual books along the way, learning about Buddhism, Zen, Taoism. And then I read the works of a gentleman, his name is Carlos Castaneda. And he is an author who kind of showed the world the spiritual philosophy and experience of what’s called Toltec, which is a Mesoamerican spiritual tradition, which was unknown to me before I read it. And that opened up a lot of doorways for me as well. Ended up catching on with a, or met a couple over the internet in the early days of the internet, who were living in Santa Fe, and they were Toltec teachers. And so I ended up becoming a student of theirs. And they were living in Santa Fe at the time. And when the lady who I moved to Colorado with, she and I split up, there was nothing holding me in Colorado at all. But they were in Santa Fe. So I thought, why not go and do Santa Fe. And I had already visited them there a couple of times. And every time I went to Santa Fe, I had the distinct feeling of that I was coming home. And so Santa Fe always actually had this special connection for me that like, you know, everything very warm, very inviting. And I thought to myself, well, nothing keeping me in Colorado, I don’t want to go back to New York. I want to keep, you know, moving forward and venturing west, although actually from Colorado to Mexico, but so I ended up moving to Santa Fe to be closer to these spiritual teachers. And then it was in Santa Fe, where I got my start in restaurants. I was working just whatever job I could find in Santa Fe while I got there. Just I did retail again for a while. And then I ended up going to work for Wells Fargo, the bank, I was there with them for a few years as a banker. And then I got my start in restaurants with Sal and Kim Tolumu and their daughter Star. And they had a restaurant and they needed day servers. And they were willing to hire me with absolutely zero experience and teach me how to be a daytime server. And that’s where I got my start. And I ended up venturing down to Santa Fe, actually downtown to Santa Fe. And I worked for a Rob Day at the San Francisco Street Bar and Grill for quite a while. And yeah. And so, and that’s actually when I think I, when I worked for Sal and Kim and Star, I really still didn’t know what I was doing. I knew the basics of how to be a server. In fact, actually one night I went in as a as a bus driver for them and completely overloaded a serving tray of stuff, lost my balance, and it tipped over in the middle of the dining room and some water glasses that I had stacked up, which of course I figured out very quickly you shouldn’t do. A lot of water went down to his woman’s back who was there to have a really nice steak dinner. And so that’s how bad I was at the job. She was awake for it. Yes. She became very awake and let out a very loud shrink in the middle of a very busy dinner service. So, but of course I got my footing, I learned how to stack trays. And then I eventually I learned how to be a server too. And just to make sure, is that the star that’s the GM of Joseph’s now? Yes. Yep. Okay, cool. Cool. I wanted to make sure. Okay. Yeah, that’s great. I didn’t, I don’t think I ever realized that you guys worked together and she gave you the start. Yeah, she did. Yeah. Actually, it’s kind of funny. So Star gave me my first job in a restaurant. So now the boss of my current company, I would catering company, her last name is Star. So I don’t know if that’s just like, for telling them maybe this will be the bookend of my career in the hospitality industry, but we’ll see how it goes. Just something kind of funny and out there I thought about the other day. The stars have aligned. The stars have aligned. Exactly. And then we’ll see where it goes from here. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, worked for Robbie for quite a few years actually. And that’s he, his restaurant is actually where I learned how to bar that. And yeah, I got behind the bar there. And met one of the best bartender teachers I could ever have imagined working for a gentleman by the name of Joseph who was out of the industry. But before you and I met, I actually, I think that was his last job in the industry. But he was a, he taught me how to work at bar better than anybody else I could have imagined, like how to set it up, how to prioritize your customers, how to basically move as quickly as you can in as few steps as you can, especially when it’s getting really busy. Of course, they taught me drink recipes, but he also said like, drink recipes are going to come. But you actually, to be a great bartender, you have to know how to move behind the bar. And he taught me his ways of doing it. Actually, stuff that he taught me, stuff I still use today behind the bar. Yeah, that was your, I had Todd Walker as my kind of bar mentor, but yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. You need someone like that behind the bar. If you don’t get that, you can tell the people that have been thrown in without any guidance. You just make it work, but they always seem like fish out of water, you know? Yeah, they do. And it’s kind of funny now that I’m in a bit of a mentor shift now too, where now I’m somewhat of an elder statesman, working with some people in the catering company currently, who are new to the industry altogether. And so one young woman is very eager to be behind the bar. And I worked with her on a couple of shifts so far. And I’ve seen her, I’ve seen her work behind the bar, and she has that thing that you need behind the bar, like that, that focus and that determination to get the job done, that you can’t teach a person. So she has the it factor, all she lacks is the mechanics. So I’ve kind of taken her, taken her under my wing to like explain the mechanics of it to her, because if she chooses to stay in the industry, she’s going to make a great, great bartender. So I just figured, like, you know, I can take the, you know, what I was given having a great teacher and try to be a good teacher for her to tell her forward if she decides to, she wants to make a go of being a bartender. Yeah, that is interesting. You say that. What is that? Because I know what you’re talking about, the thing that you see someone and it’s like, oh, you could be a bartender. Like, yeah, yeah, like, I know I have it. I worked bar in for years. I know you have it. And I’ve seen people that even look like they could have been a good bartender, but you like interact with them for a few minutes. And like, I don’t know. Yeah, like, it seems like you’re just going to be more like a waiter. And I don’t know what it is. But you know, like, it is something. Yeah, you know, and it’s funny, like I worked with her directly on one gig. We actually worked at prom. And so we weren’t even working at bar necessarily, like, of course, like, you know, high school kids. And so we were serving frozen daiquiris and Coke and Sprite and Diet Coke, and also Shirley Temples. And so at one point, you know, we were going to get a little bit below. And so I walked out just to walk on the floor to do some busing and help the people who were on the floor. I looked over her and I just saw her moving and I saw the way that she was moving. And like, and she had her like, she was completely present and focused in a way that, you know, a good bartender is going to have. And even though she hasn’t worked a lot of bars before that, and only worked a couple since then, like, dude, she there was a spark that she had, like, there was a glow that she had. It’s like, yeah, like, she’s in the exact right spot for herself. And she actually had enough came out of the tech industry. So I don’t know how you could have that. But I know that, you know, having seen enough people met enough people that, you know, I think we all have hidden talents that don’t pertain to perhaps our schooling and our job experience. But again, if she wants to stay in the industry, I think she’s going to be a fantastic bartender. Yeah, hidden, hidden deep within both me and you is the ability to be a dog rumor. We just explored it yet. You know, I mean, I got a dog is sitting right outside my door here. So she does need a good brushing here pretty soon. And she’ll let me. So yeah. So how much of what came after do you think is a result of the fact that you have happened to land in Santa Fe? Because I asked myself that sometimes, you know, would my life have played out differently? Had I not landed up in the land of enchantment, where there’s all these people, all this wine, all this ability to learn and be in just kind of the cultural thick of one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world? Yeah, I mean, you know, we were very fortunate in that regard. Like we had got we had any any pick of restaurant to go work at, of course, like Santa Fe has every cuisine that there is short of maybe I didn’t have a Cajun restaurant. Actually, when I left, maybe it does now. I haven’t been in quite a while. But at the same time, though, like you could look you could work with any cuisine that you wanted to any style of service from like, you know, I did bar and grill all the way up to Geronimo five star fine dining. Brew pubs were getting to be a big thing. Gastropub’s were starting to be a big thing when I left. And Santa Fe was had always stayed on the forefront of the service industry. And we were very fortunate, I realized in that regard, because living where I do now in Ithaca, New York. And it’s a nice food town. And, and even with like two, like, you know, universities, one of which is an Ivy League school. So we have an international influence here. It’s a nice food town, but it’s not a Santa Fe food town. And so like, so we were very fortunate that we got to come up in that world. And if I hadn’t started there, I don’t know if I would have gotten into restaurants at all, just like the plethora of restaurants that were there and like, you know, Sal and Cam and Star needed help. So and they were willing to hire somebody without any experience. I don’t know if I could have gotten that start anywhere else. So I has to say, I mean, I don’t know if I would have gotten into industry to begin with. But circumstances are what they are. And so we did. And I’m grateful for it, to say the least. Sure. Are you happy without things have turned out? I know it’s kind of hard to answer that. Can’t really go back and relive life and try something different. But no, no, you know, and actually, and hopefully, you know, to pull us out from the the darker things that we were talking about, I can say honestly, that I am as fulfilled in life right now as I ever have been. You know, even though, you know, ups and downs and struggles and like, you know, having lost my, my dad and my brother, you know, just only a couple years ago, but and now I’m caretaking my mom and you know, so like, they’re watching her get a little bit older. So then there’s the reality of that. Nonetheless, given everything that, you know, I’ve gone through and I’m going through, I can say that my life is as good now as it’s ever been. Hands down, like without hesitation. If you could go back and give yourself advice, five, 10, 20 years ago, is there anything you would have told yourself to do differently? Yeah, yeah, actually, it’s things that I would actually, it’s things that I would tell any, any younger person in the industry now, and actually, and hopefully, as I get to work with them, I can start to impart some of this knowledge based on my own experience. I would say definitely eat better. You know, hydrate, basically, like, you know, take care of yourself physically, like, you know, take care of your food, shelter and clothing. You know, the late nights, they’re fun to have and maybe they’re necessary to have to, I don’t know. But I’m definitely glad that I had many of them. But there are many that I wish I had not had at the same time. So I would say, yeah, take care of yourself, like, you know, eat well, hydrate. Of course, like, you know, take care of your house, because like, when you get away, when you come home from a busy night, you want to have a good, healthy, comfortable spot to come home to to unwind in. And that’s yours. That’s something that I wish I had known back then. And then I would say also, too, like, you know, keep learning, too. That’s actually, again, like what kept me in the industry for so long. Like, you know, whatever it is about the industry, whether you study, you know, a wine spirit, whether you actually, or maybe you’re if you’re listening to this in your back of house, like, keep expanding your repertoire in the back of house, too, like, keep keep educating yourself and don’t let yourself get stagnant in that regard, because it’s like, there’s so much more to learn. You know, the world of wine changes every day. The culinary side of things changes all the time. You know, who knows who knew that Mac and cheese would have come back into style. You know, I couldn’t have seen that one coming to save the my life. But also, too, like, what I’ve noticed, too, that you want to have a you want to have and develop and cultivate interests outside of the job, too. Like, you want to have a you want to be extremely well rounded as you can as a person. So whether it’s like, you know, I got into travel for a while, and I actually I would love to travel even more, like, go to see the world like, whatever happens, you were always going to like Peru and Machu Picchu, and all. Yeah, I do. I do remember that. I’d forgotten about that. Yeah, yeah. Like, I can honestly say that traveling is like, is better than any university or any school that I ever went to. I learned more about the world. I learned more about myself when I’m out there seeing new cultures and experiencing new things and meeting new people. And, you know, I can say that, you know, honestly, that I have friends from literally every continent in the world, even though I haven’t been to every continent yet, but it’s still a goal of mine. You know, I French from Africa, from Asia, from South America, plenty from Europe. And of course, like, you know, I have friends from all four corners of the country, but also like, even some of our territories too. So, so it’s like, you know, travel has been one of my great passions. And so like, any piece of advice I would get to my younger self is like, make sure that you have a passion outside of the industry and cultivate that. And also, I got into performance along the way too. Like, I got into dance performance, improv comedy. I was a red-nosed clown with with Vice Fools, the circus school in Santa Fe. And that’s just something that oddly enough, we’re all skilled, which makes me really good in the service industry too. Somehow, like it all does tie back in, but also too, it just gave me something outside of the industry where I could turn my my industry brain off and turn on my my creative brain. And that really just kind of helped me to unwind from the industry, but also to it gave me more purpose in life too. It helped me to just be more well rounded. And so if I could tell myself a younger self too, like, keep doing that. And if not, if anything, do more of that if you can. Sure. All of your advice echoes kind of what I would say to you. I think that the only thing I would have added for myself, and this is just for myself, probably spend less time at the Matador, the Diverne Santa Fe. Yes. Not zero. Like, there are a lot of great memories at nights, but it didn’t need to be every single night. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I would, I would tell my younger self too. And if I actually was sitting next to your younger self, I would tell him to send me that thing too. Like, you know, we didn’t necessarily need to be there as often as we were. I mean, as much fun as I had there and like the night life, but didn’t need all the nights. Friday, Saturday, sure. Tuesday, Saturday. Yeah. Yeah. They had a, they had a really good DJ on Monday nights they like to go to. And so that was kind of fun. He played, he’s fun, some really old classics from the R&B and Motown days. So that was a, that was kind of a fun night to be there. But yeah, like, you know, four or five nights a week, maybe could have cut down to one to two. So exactly. Yeah. Now, I mean, having a hobby outside of the industry is really helpful. I don’t know if I full on had that most of my time in the industry. My hobby kind of became studying wine and spirits, which, which I mean, you get into it enough. It is different enough. It’s not service service. So sure. During the COVID, I actually got into programming on the side and doing that has been really nice because that’s just completely not related to anything. That’s, that’s been good. You had, I do remember going to, it was African dance, I believe that you were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, and that, you know, that was another passion that I had, like just dancing in general, but also I love being on stage too. I love performing for people and just kind of like being zany and coopy and helping them to get a laugh and like, you know, help them maybe take a little bit off or give them a moment of a reprieve from their life, you know, kind of like helping them laugh and chuckle and also like, you know, see the brighter side of life too. So, which again does tie to the industry, but in a little bit of a different way that was as fulfilling, if not even more fulfilling for me as a person than serving marketing was or is. Yeah. Do you think, do you think there’s something that’s almost fundamentally broken about people like me and you that go to the extremes in the industry? Like, you know, we couldn’t just show up at a retail job, work at, go home, couldn’t just study wine a little bit. I had to keep going for the advanced. Do you think there’s that propensity to more that like drives us to do these tests, to do the performance, do that sort of thing? You know, it’s like, it’s something that I’ve asked myself quite a bit over the past several years, especially since I, you know, quit drinking. You know, what is it about me that made me want to keep drinking as much as I was, even in spite of like the negative repercussions that came along with it. But it’s something that I still have now. It’s like, I have this desire for more. And I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing. I think that it does drive us to succeed in life. You know, it’s helped us get our level one, you moved on to level two, now you’re a GM. So, you know, coming from like, I know, like, you started as a bar back, and now you’re all the way up to GM and, you know, who knows where it’s going to keep going. It’s definitely led me to that desire for wanting more in my life. It’s definitely propelled me to travel as much as I have. It’s that spark for travel is still there, you know, to set foot on every continent is still a goal of mine. It’s, I think it’s a very achievable goal. And, but also too, it’s like, I’m starting to wonder, like, okay, so I’ve done hospitality in restaurants, what would be the next step for me, I would probably be to own my own place. And then if I was going to own my own place, well, what I want to do. And I kind of had some, some ideas bouncing around in my head. Also, too, like, maybe I just find a new industry altogether that I can get into that would spark me just as much as hospitality has. So I don’t know. But I hear what you’re saying, though, like, I do wonder if there is something that’s broken in us that that makes us be able to stay in an industry which a lot of people can’t do. You know, it’s like, you need, you need something different to be able to do what we’ve done. And also to stay in it and to keep coming back for more. You know, it’s like, you can have a customer yelling at you one night. And then the next night you show up, you know, you got your tie on, you got your shirts fresh, and you’re ready to give just 100% service once again. Or like, maybe, I know some of the owners and managers that we’ve worked with, like, maybe not the best to work with in the world. But nonetheless, we kept coming back. That’s true. Oh, man, we didn’t even talk about Alpharole. Do you want to get into that? Or is that too much? Oh, no, no, I’m happy. I’m a, yeah, I’m an open book, man. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, so let’s talk a little back story for the listener. Okay. So I, I brought Brian on kind of to work at Alpharole. That’s how I would say it. Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, you, again, like, you know, I was sought after, you invited at one point, and you were one of the people that sought after me. So. Yeah, that’s true. That didn’t go well. That’s a nice way of saying it. It’s a very nice way to say it. I know that they asked you to leave if I remember correctly, but I don’t remember why. I’m not going to. Yeah. The reason, yeah, the reason why was going back to Bouch. I got the job at Bouch and was going to work at Bouch three nights a week and do Alpharole two nights a week or three if they wanted me. That way, again, I could do the fine dining at Bouch, but also the fun bartending at Alpharole because I had secured the the prime gig at Alpharole, the Tuesday night blues jam, like, which was the best night to bartend there because it was the busiest. And so I had secured that shift. And so I thought if I could just like, you know, bartend at Alpharole one to two nights a week, maybe three if they needed, and then, you know, certifying dining, then again, like I would be out of the happiest man in the whole wide world. But but that meant that I would have to step down from full time at Alpharole. And that’s why they let me go. They wanted me to be full time or nothing. Or yeah, that’s the conversation I had actually. That’s see, that’s why I was struggling to remember because as I was putting together my notes for today, I was like, he got left go. I know he wasn’t stealing. I know like I know nothing happened. I know he showed up to work the whole time. Yeah. But I remember they like escorted you out, I believe. They didn’t escort me out. Actually, it’s funny enough, though, they they replaced me behind the bar in shifts on what ended up being my last night, the blues jam. And then I went and I changed out of my youth, my uniform into my civvies and actually hung around the bar for a few minutes, just saying goodbye to all the regular customers who are there who had actually grown to really, really love, you know, like I had relationships with a lot of these people. And so I just went around and let them know that, hey, you know what, I’m not going to be your Tuesday night bartender anymore. I hope to see you guys around town, which of course, Santa Fe is a small town and I did see them. And so actually, I spent some time just saying goodbye. So, but it was very unceremonious. In fact, actually, I would even call it straight up unfair. Yeah, that I wanted to adjust my schedule, but and then go work a different a different restaurant at the same time is still working there part time. And they did not want that. They want to be full time or nothing. And actually, that’s actually the text I got from Frida. She said, like, we need to have you on a schedule full time or we can’t employ you, even though there were plenty of people who are there who did work this other jobs. But for some reason, they didn’t want that for me. For sure. Yeah. I think, you know, if I remember correctly, it was that lack of ability to even discuss it because it happened. It was zero to 100 out of nowhere. It was too, you know, and, you know, yeah. And I, and when I gave them my new availability, I just explained, I didn’t explain that I was going to work somewhere else, but I explained to them, I had other things that I wanted to do and that I just wanted to scale down my availability. And so these are, this is my new availability here. And at first they said, okay, that’s fine. They didn’t even ask me what it was. And I don’t know if, if the word got out that I was going to go work at another restaurant, but we’re being there at the same time, but they, I don’t know, they never actually confirmed that or not. But they talked amongst themselves and decided that they wanted, they needed to have me full time or they could keep me on the schedule. And so then on, actually, and then on my last night, what ended up was going to be my last night, it was going to be my last blues jam. They replaced me in the middle of the shift, so they wouldn’t even let me finish that shift. So, yeah, so very, very unprofessional, very unceremonious. And even though I had only been there for a short time, because it was like, you know, I was like, we were waiting on our first year of being open to new alpha role. I felt that I had garnered a little bit more respect to that, but you know, I was not shown that. And so that’s the nature of the business at times. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So after that happened, I remember I put in my notice. I remember that didn’t sit well with me, which that was, yeah. I mean, yeah, I’m like, five, six, seven years later. It’s amazing that, you know, you see these things in different restaurants, you see the way that the servers and bartenders get treated, not always, but it is a position of lower leverage often. Yeah, it is too. And especially when you have, you know, owners, GMs, managers, and like, you know, in an industry like that, especially in a town where it is as big as it is in Santa Fe, you end up working with some pretty big egos. And so they do oftentimes see us as being completely replaceable. And so, and that’s an unfortunate position to be in, particularly if you have gotten to a level where you’ve achieved success, they’ve literally handed you the keys to be behind their bar and to be in the, in the building by yourself after closing with no other manager there because they trust you. So they have thrown all this trust in your hands. And, but then all of a sudden one night, something, a switch splits and you’re out the door. And it is unfortunate. I haven’t seen that as much in Ithaca out here. And I don’t know what the difference is, but in Santa Fe, I saw it quite a bit. Yeah. And I’m trying to, you know, I’m trying to also hold on to, I’m very grateful for a lot of what L4L gave me. So for me too, yeah. Yeah, I’m like, yeah, that’s how I got into the advanced course and, you know, being able to put buyer on my resume was how I snuck in. Sure, yeah. Yeah, as I’m thinking through it too, after I put in my notice, and I was working it out, as I was coming out to look at houses and like my break, I pretty much got attacked through text messages and unceremoniously departed from there too early. So I think that might have just been a systematic, you know, systemic thing. You know, less us, less us. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And like, and again, it’s like, I look back on it finally overall, like, you know, obviously my departure left the sour taste for a while, but I don’t necessarily regret having worked there. One, that we got to work together again, just on a personal level. And two, I got to work at, you know, one of the most storied bars in all of Santa Fe. You know, it’s like, and so I got to, you know, kind of put that feather in my cap too. I think a lot of the people who we worked with were great to work with. I had a lot of fun. I still remember actually Emilio Estevez coming to sit at the bar. So I got to chat it up with him for a few minutes. Yes. Yes, that’s right. Even though, yeah, like not to name drop, but that was actually one of the perks of working in the industry in Santa Fe is, you know, the number, the sheer number of celebrities that would come through and that you got to meet and talk with. And, you know, and he of course got whisked away by other tables, because everybody wanted to talk to him about Mighty Ducks and about young guns. I wanted to talk to him about the outsiders, but, you know, that’s that’s my speed. But, you know, just like getting to chat it up with him was a highlight. And also just too, like he was a, it was a fun spot to be a part of the history of the bar itself. It was great to immerse myself in that and a professional side of it. Getting to know the history of the building itself, which goes way, way back in Santa Fe that actually a lot of people probably didn’t even know. And so like, you know, the war of Santa Fe, a lot of it actually goes through that bar at El Ferole. And, you know, and I got to be there for just for a moment and that was great. Yeah. I mean, and I mean, the renovation was beautiful. It was a cool. Yeah. No, I’m, I’m, I’m nothing but grateful for it, except for the end. But exactly right. You know, it’s like, yeah, I mean, but if you can say that like 98% of the experience was good. I mean, that’s an A plus and you get into Harvard. So, oh, sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, cool. Brian Sensible, everybody. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to join me. Absolutely. I hope, I hope that this was a good episode for you. Like I said, I listened to some of it. So I kind of had an idea of what you would be looking for and maybe questions that you’d be asking. But nonetheless, actually it’s good to see you and talk to you again as well. Like it’s been a while. No, it was awesome. It’s, you know, this is the cool thing. You get an hour to catch up with someone you haven’t seen for forever or an hour to learn something new. So it’s been really fun for me to kind of recreate and re-explore the past that, you know, you forget all the things that happened and, you know, you have your view of what you think happened, but you realize that you never got the full backstory. You know, you’re always so in your head that there’s a lot that goes on you don’t see. Yeah, for sure. And like, and you brought up, you know, things about, you know, stuff that I had, you know, all together forgotten about, but nonetheless that were like really highlights of my time at Santa Fe, working in the industry, but also like, you know, our friendship as well too. So it’s been kind of a nice trip down memory lane in a way. Well, I’m happy Brian is happy that I’m happy.